Are conspiracy theories destroying democracy?

[symyjym]

Regards 9/11.. My gut feeling is that the USA knew what was being planned for 9/11 and decided to let it go ahead

So what you are saying now is "USA knew what was being planned for 9/11 and decided to let it go ahead"

If you believe this was the case, letting it go ahead, would be a contradiction to your belief of the government setting up an organised controlled demolition, firing a cruise missile into the Pentagon and organising a passenger change on the planes etc to name but a few.

They either let it go ahead or they set it up, which one would you prefer? Both are a contradiction of the other so it's either one or the other buddy.

 

[Nibble]

So what you are saying now is "USA knew what was being planned for 9/11 and decided to let it go ahead"

If you believe this was the case, letting it go ahead, would be a contradiction to your belief of the government setting up an organised controlled demolition, firing a cruise missile into the Pentagon and organising a passenger change on the planes etc to name but a few.

They either let it go ahead or they set it up, which one would you prefer? Both are a contradiction of the other so it's either one or the other buddy.

Read my last post mate, they are confused and making it up as they go along. The harder you push them the more confused yet determined they get, it's part of their psychological condition. Trust me,it would take a lot more than us telling them they need help for them to actually seek and accept the help the need. They would be just as shocked as you if they actually came up with an answer that made any sense. My advice? Leave them to it for you will find no sense or answers here.

 

[symyjym]

Regards 9/11.. My gut feeling is that the USA knew what was being planned for 9/11 and decided to let it go ahead........

So what you are saying now is "USA knew what was being planned for 9/11 and decided to let it go ahead"

If you believe this was the case, letting it go ahead, would be a contradiction to your belief of the government setting up an organised controlled demolition, firing a cruise missile into the Pentagon and organising a passenger change on the planes etc to name but a few.

They either let it go ahead or they set it up, which one would you prefer? Both are a contradiction of the other so it's either one or the other buddy.

Read my last post mate, they are confused and making it up as they go along. The harder you push them the more confused yet determined they get, it's part of their psychological condition. Trust me,it would take a lot more than us telling them they need help for them to actually seek and accept the help the need. They would be just as shocked as you if they actually came up with an answer that made any sense. My advice? Leave them to it for you will find no sense or answers here.

Yep you are right about the psychology of believers in conspiracy theories, and as I said earlier if they realy wanted to know the truth they can quite easily ask a reputable local structural engineer.

 

[Nibble]

Yep you are right about the psychology of believers in conspiracy theories, and as I said earlier if they realy wanted to know the truth they can quite easily ask a reputable local structural engineer.

Quite. You cannot debate with them, you just become part of their unstable theories. This isn't a dig at them, I fel for them. I genuinely believe they have mental health issues.

The believer will suck everything into their world and make it become a part of their belief system, they have done it to NSC. As far as they are concerned NSC contains the problem. I can almost guarantee they will be on other forums doing exactly the same thing, day in, day out.

I know the inevitable response will be Baaah, or don't label us mental because we have different beliefs etc. The point is you can't engage with them, they don't know there is anythihng wrong with them hence their circular train of thought.

They need to get off the internet and see their GP's. None of this CT fantasy will make them happy or end well for them. You only have to read this thread to understand they are not well adjusted people.

 

[Birdie Boy]

I love conspiracy theories and especially CT threads! Here is my 2 cents worth on this thread.

It seems to me that non-CT believers will not accept anything that a CT'er will say and their idea is the truth but they say it is the other way around! A lot of what CTers say may not be proven but it does give you things to think about, which you can then disagree with, agree with, or sit on the fence waiting for more conclusive proof either way. Non-CTers on this thread have resorted to name calling rather than debating and name calling, yet they say this is the way of the CTer!

I do like the argument that CTers only copy/paste from youtube and the internet and yet post youtube video's themselves. If you are not going to get info from the internet,books and media, where are you going to get it from? Going direct to the source like Goldstone76?

I took a look at the video at the beginning of this thread (posted by a non-CTer)showing the plane in the tower close up. My initial feeling was that the plane probably caused the explosion and demolition of the tower as I noticed that the flames were in the middle or further away from the middle initially and built up and up and explode out of the building on the same or 1 floor lower than the plane. Very believable but what if there was an explosion on the ground floor or lower and the flames/explosion went up through the lift shaft and where the plane had taken out the lift shaft on that floor, the explosion escaped from the shaft and went out through the windows? Presumably this would make the falling of the building easier as the explosion was from the ground. I am sure that this has been thought of before but I haven't heard of it although I don't go out of my way looking for stuff like this unless I am bored at work!

There are sooo many things that are strange that I think that it is impossible, for me, to come to a conclusion but I do know one thing I will continue to listen to debates and analysis from both sides with resorting to name calling and arguing.

 

[Nibble]

I love conspiracy theories and especially CT threads! Here is my 2 cents worth on this thread.

It seems to me that non-CT believers will not accept anything that a CT'er will say and their idea is the truth but they say it is the other way around! A lot of what CTers say may not be proven but it does give you things to think about, which you can then disagree with, agree with, or sit on the fence waiting for more conclusive proof either way. Non-CTers on this thread have resorted to name calling rather than debating and name calling, yet they say this is the way of the CTer!

I do like the argument that CTers only copy/paste from youtube and the internet and yet post youtube video's themselves. If you are not going to get info from the internet,books and media, where are you going to get it from? Going direct to the source like Goldstone76?

I took a look at the video at the beginning of this thread (posted by a non-CTer)showing the plane in the tower close up. My initial feeling was that the plane probably caused the explosion and demolition of the tower as I noticed that the flames were in the middle or further away from the middle initially and built up and up and explode out of the building on the same or 1 floor lower than the plane. Very believable but what if there was an explosion on the ground floor or lower and the flames/explosion went up through the lift shaft and where the plane had taken out the lift shaft on that floor, the explosion escaped from the shaft and went out through the windows? Presumably this would make the falling of the building easier as the explosion was from the ground. I am sure that this has been thought of before but I haven't heard of it although I don't go out of my way looking for stuff like this unless I am bored at work!

There are sooo many things that are strange that I think that it is impossible, for me, to come to a conclusion but I do know one thing I will continue to listen to debates and analysis from both sides with resorting to name calling and arguing.

While your argument is to a degree well written and non-combative it is still utter bobbins.

 

[Goldstone76]

So what you are saying now is "USA knew what was being planned for 9/11 and decided to let it go ahead"

If you believe this was the case, letting it go ahead, would be a contradiction to your belief of the government setting up an organised controlled demolition, firing a cruise missile into the Pentagon and organising a passenger change on the planes etc to name but a few.

They either let it go ahead or they set it up, which one would you prefer? Both are a contradiction of the other so it's either one or the other buddy.

The CIA/Bush knew and facilitated 9/11. No contradiction by me.. 9/11 suited the neoconservative doctrine which was conceived well before 9/11. 9/11 in fact gave Bush a great lever to gather not only USA public support but also world support for what was to follow. The event needed to be massive in order to create a kneejerk world reaction. All of the buildings that fell had thermite and explosives rigged. Interestingly Building 7 housed quite a few government agencies including the CIA. Secret documents were lost. Why? So they would never see the light of day again and not embarrass the USA/multi nationals for past actions. Thats what I think and feel.. But the thing is that you need to go back in time to grasp the motives for why 9/11 was an inside job.. and look at today as to who profited.

If your in any doubt about how society changed because of what happened you need to learn some history!

Heres a scientific paper about Thermite .. and how its been found in the dust from the Towers and surroundings http://www.benthamscience.com/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.pdf

This scientific (yes scientific) investigation was published in The Open Chemical Physics Journal

 

[Goldstone76]

Yep you are right about the psychology of believers in conspiracy theories, and as I said earlier if they realy wanted to know the truth they can quite easily ask a reputable local structural engineer.

Hahaha...... hahahaha.... in fact ..

Why would a local engineer have more knowledge than a very long list of engineers and scientists who have researched and studied this for many years!?

 

[Birdie Boy]

While your argument is to a degree well written and non-combative it is still utter bobbins.

Can anyone actually say truthfully that they believe that the US government did not know this was going to happen or that they organised it?

I believe that they knew it was going to happen but did nothing about it. They also probably didn't realise how huge this was going to be in terms of the death toll.

 

[Goldstone76]

Quite a lot of studies going on into the psychology of believers in conspiracy theories. Some revealing trust issues and the correlation between being able to believe something if it has originated from a distance ie 9/11 theories but not being able to believe something if it is nearer to your life, often resulting in difficulty forming and maintaining close personal relationships.

Studies show the perception by CT's of feeling out of control and the need to present themselves as having special insight or being more open minded than the average person can be quite legitimately compared to someone experiencing a manic episode. CT's can often consume vast quantities of information but more often than not do not fully understand or are not able to assimilate the information they are viweing (something they have in common with bi-polar sufferers).This invariably leads to mis-understanding or scan-reading of vital facts. The semi-assimilation of facts inevitably results in the subject "filling in the blanks" with half understood information from another, or several other sources. As you can imagine this can lead to nothing else but a rather confusing mass of non-information that has no structure or quantifiable conclusion.

There are several well defined links between the openess of conspiracy believers and low self esteem.CT's see openess as being open minded, a common misinterpretation that can lead to quite severe psychological trauma in believers of conspiracy theories. While in well adjusted indivduals openess is assimilated as a natural part of their lives. The well adjusted individual is able to maintain a level of openess while quite naturally being able to employ a healthy level of scepticism and judgment when dealing with interpersonal relationships or information disseminated from close friends or across unknowns on the internet or the media.
The conspiracy believer however, has trouble employing this judgment and will often come across as one type of individual to someone in person or whom they are close to while portraying an altogether different, more radical personality to those at a distance, ie internet forums or literature. The very opposite of openness. This dual representation of themselves is at once a manifestation of low self esteem and a cause of it.



Intriguing.

Intriguing yes but you cant pigeonhole humanity. The difference between a conspiracy theorist and a non conspiracy theorist is that the theorist is actually asking questions where they see inconsistencies. To not question the official line or reason or facts as given by government is in my opinion a huge mistake. In fact Nibble you would have us thinking that its better not to think and just accept all we are told. If this is true I do feel sorry for you.

Reality is a personal thing.

"There is no fixed physical reality, no single perception of the world, just numerous ways of interpreting world views as dictated by one's nervous system and the specific environment of our planetary existence". Deepak Chopra

 

[Goldstone76]

Can anyone actually say truthfully that they believe that the US government did not know this was going to happen or that they organised it?

I believe that they knew it was going to happen but did nothing about it. They also probably didn't realise how huge this was going to be in terms of the death toll.

If you have a look at the Hubris documentary its plain to see/hear that Bush etc. lied and deceived. George Tenet knew exactly what was going on. I very much feel that those in the know made huge profits on the day and ever since. Insider trading happened days before 9/11 as discussed by this excellent article published by the Asian Times March 21st 2012.

At the centre of the investigation is how computer software read and came to the conclusion that 9/11 was going to happen (before it did) and in turn sold United Airlines and American Airlines 'put option' which meant that when the attacks happened, the airline stock went down below a certain level then those who benefitted would make millions of $s.

 

[Nibble]

Intriguing yes but you cant pigeonhole humanity. The difference between a conspiracy theorist and a non conspiracy theorist is that the theorist is actually asking questions where they see inconsistencies. To not question the official line or reason or facts as given by government is in my opinion a huge mistake. In fact Nibble you would have us thinking that its better not to think and just accept all we are told. If this is true I do feel sorry for you.

Reality is a personal thing.

"There is no fixed physical reality, no single perception of the world, just numerous ways of interpreting world views as dictated by one's nervous system and the specific environment of our planetary existence". Deepak Chopra

You seem very quick to pigeon hole non-believers as sheep though eh? The ignorance is astounding.
Well, the post of mine you quoted is my belief. After questioning aspects that's what I arrived at. What you fail to grasp is I have explored many, many, many, many CT's and the post of mine you quoted is what I concluded. The post of mine you quoted is my belief. After questioning aspects that's what I arrived at. You cannot be debated with. I do not wish to discuss your crackpot ideas.

To just assume that no-one lese has done any research except you and other believers is not only wrong, it displays a certain arrogance bordering on illusions of grandeur. You researched. I researched, we came to two different conclusions. Get over it.

Believe me, I don not accept wholesale what I read, hear, see or am told from any source and I believe the governments of this world do nowt but serve themselves. I believe that fully. I also believe you need help or at the very least some guidance away from this fantasy and perhaps spend some time getting down to earth, doing some exercise, relaxation techniques, get off the net and back to nature for a weekend, it may be just the break you need. Whatever you do, do it well.

Peace,

Nibola Virus.

 

[symyjym]

Hahaha...... hahahaha.... in fact ..

Why would a local engineer have more knowledge than a very long list of engineers and scientists who have researched and studied this for many years!?

The list is obviously not long enough and this really shows your ignorance in not looking outside of the internet, and then claim to be open minded.

I've recommended that you ask Hemsley Orrell Partnership HOP who undertake all major structural projects in the city and who also plyed a massive part in the Amex Stadium construction.

If you cannot do that and research it on a first hand basis you have lost the open minded debate.

 

[Goldstone76]

You seem very quick to pigeon hole non-believers as sheep though eh? The ignorance is astounding.
Well, the post of mine you quoted is my belief. After questioning aspects that's what I arrived at. What you fail to grasp is I have explored many, many, many, many CT's and the post of mine you quoted is what I concluded. The post of mine you quoted is my belief. After questioning aspects that's what I arrived at. You cannot be debated with. I do not wish to discuss your crackpot ideas.

To just assume that no-one lese has done any research except you and other believers is not only wrong, it displays a certain arrogance bordering on illusions of grandeur. You researched. I researched, we came to two different conclusions. Get over it.

Believe me, I don not accept wholesale what I read, hear, see or am told from any source and I believe the governments of this world do nowt but serve themselves. I believe that fully. I also believe you need help or at the very least some guidance away from this fantasy and perhaps spend some time getting down to earth, doing some exercise, relaxation techniques, get off the net and back to nature for a weekend, it may be just the break you need. Whatever you do, do it well.

Peace,

Nibola Virus.

I never said you havent done any research.. Your belief is up to you. But we are here to debate and I dont expect you or anyone to change their minds. Duhhhh

 

[Goldstone76]

The list is obviously not long enough and this really shows your ignorance in not looking outside of the internet, and then claim to be open minded.

I've recommended that you ask Hemsley Orrell Partnership HOP who undertake all major structural projects in the city and who also plyed a massive part in the Amex Stadium construction.

If you cannot do that and research it on a first hand basis you have lost the open minded debate.

Oh really... You know nothing. Ive been involved with this since 2001.. been to New York and Afghanistan. Ive spoken to people who were there on the day and also to people in Afghanistan plus a fair few mainstream journalists both print and TV about this. Im open minded, making my thoughts known and you have come up with nothing of any substance at any point.

 

[Nibble]

I never said you havent done any research.. Your belief is up to you. But we are here to debate and I dont expect you or anyone to change their minds. Duhhhh

Debate!? Ha! Go on, tell me another while I'm in the mood.

 

[Goldstone76]

Debate!? Ha! Go on, tell me another while I'm in the mood.

Go on then I dare you.. make your case for why 9/11 was unknown to the government and it happened as per the 911 Commission Report etc.

 

[symyjym]

Can anyone actually say truthfully that they believe that the US government did not know this was going to happen or that they organised it?

I believe that they knew it was going to happen but did nothing about it. They also probably didn't realise how huge this was going to be in terms of the death toll.

At the time there were whisperings of a terror threat, and at the time Bush and the government didn't take it seriously, but equally they did not know in what form a terror threat would be.

The WTC has been considered a possible target for decades, and in 1993 a truck bomb was detonated below the North Tower.

So they were warned that something may or may not happen, but they were not expecting 4 high jacked planes to target the two WTC towers the Pentagon and the White House the next month.

If the question was did they know the specifics of a possible attack? The answer would be no.

If the question was were they warned that something may happen, but they didn't take it seriously? The answer would be yes, and this is a well documented as fact not a conspiracy theory.

The American Government and George Bush failed to act on some intelligence and their only part in it was incompetence.

 

[Nibble]

Go on then I dare you.. make your case for why 9/11 was unknown to the government and it happened as per the 911 Commission Report etc.

I've had many a well informed, interesting conversation with many intelligent people about the subject. I won't debate with you as you are neither intelligent or well informed. I've already stated quite clearly I'm not debating 9/11 or any other conspiricies with the likes of you. Yet another example of you just not reading anything properly. Get some help mate.

 

[symyjym]

Oh really... You know nothing. Ive been involved with this since 2001.. been to New York and Afghanistan

I believe that you have been fooled for the last twelve years, but I don't believe you have been to New York and Afghanistan. I may think differently if you posted under your real name but if you expect me to believe some random no named person on NSC you really are having a larf.