Animals - Help Avoid their Torture!!

[rool]

And gravy?

I am actually starting to feel quite ill- imagine eating the rest of the pig that's heart had been given to your mate



It's enough to make you want to become a veggie.

I think there's a book by Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall that'll show you how to eat a pig nose to tail. Now there's a challenge

 

[Commander]

I think there's a book by Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall that'll show you how to eat a pig nose to tail. Now there's a challenge

Sort of like a yard of Ale? A pig nose to tail?



I'm off out for my delicious aromatic duck lunch.

 

[chip]

I don't think that animals should be used for testing makeup, etc - vanity products should be tested on people. Medical products really do need to be tested on something which provides a similar response to that of a human (ie rabbits eyes, dog lungs, etc). Saying "test them on paedos" is facile, as it simply won't happen. If you want medicines which will save people, then I'm afraid the animals get it.

Your basic lab mouse costs about £100 to prepare and a transgenic one ~£250. For a relatively simple study, such as examining the microvascular effect of hyperglycaemia, you are looking at a cost of £75K - £100K on animals alone over a couple of years. Once you add on the costs of technicians, equipment, agents, glassware, etc. it becomes fairly easy to see that it is in the researchers interests to minimize the number of animals used to get valid and verifiable data. Nowadays, the use of lab animals involves the completion of a 64 page ethics approval form for every experiment. Many experiments are now used for collecting data for modelling as well as hypothesis testing. Unfortunately, we know so little about molecular, cellular and physciological processes in general that we would need to come up with more experiments than even GSK could imagine to produce models capable of in silico experimentation. Part of developing a therapy is understanding the pathogenesis of the condition and this is where a large number of animal trials are conducted in reality.

Interestingly many drugs are first tested on humans. For example recombinant DNA insulins for diabetes (humalin, humalog etc.) were introduced with no animal trials whatsoever and only tested on non-diabetic adult males (just like Banting & Best in the 1920s).

 

[NMH]

The only reason I said that was because your first post was exactly the same as the one another thread.

I still don't really get what you're saying though. You're not a vegetarian, but you don't want other people to eat meat? Or you just want people to eat less meat?

And, sorry to go on, but there is one more question I want answered. (Well it's not a question actually, but I want a response anyway). Then I will leave it alone:

quoteriginally posted by Commander
Maybe in the long run, but farmers get a raw enough deal as it is. And they still have to do something with the millions of farm animals in the world already. If we didn't eat meat then surely there would be a lot LESS animals around- you couldn't just have thousands of herds of wild cows wandering around Britain.

I'm not a vegetarian. I have had pet dogs, they're never vegetarians either.

I have found (without much research at all) that we do not need to use (misuse) animals by as many as we do. We need not eat as many, as we (in general) do, we do not need to subjugate them to as many sanctioned forms of cruelty (i.e veal, animal experiments, cosmetics research etc).
If the meat is eaten, and the fat and bones from chickens can be used for soap, then I believe that's a good thing. I'd rather that the soap be good for my skin, so I'd prefer chamomile and lavender in it than chicken products.

The American Native Indian way of respecting the animals seemed good, and using as much of each one they consume and needed for food. Personally I'm still profligate with my own cooking because although I try to get as much of the marrow as I can, I don't make necklaces from the bones!

I would prefer the animals that I do need, to have had a life and not one filled with cruelty. It's not easy, but I intend to try and be conscious about it, and avoid giving money to those who misuse animals.

As for the farmer issue, I don't know why that is questionable really - farmers supply according to demand, but I don't peronally care if the battery-farming goes to the wall in favour of organic farming. You CAN easily buy free-range and organic at Sainsbury's. You can also take a short drive to places like Springs Smoked Salmon in Edburton, or Swains Farms in Henfield, or a number of other country outlets in your own area - and support local farmers by buying their produce locally. It is NOT more expensive to buy necessarily, if you shop wisely (same as you should in Sainsbury's really).
If you don't like a pleasant drive in the country every so often for great tasting eggs, bacon, lamb, duck, fish, sweets, cakes, jams, honey etc. then you can still find excellent organics and farm-raised free-range in the supermarket. I get those brilliant very-yellow-yolk eggs (that taste way better than battery) from Tescos and Sainsburys.

If farmers get a raw deal I don't know why they do that job - but herds of cattle won't suddenly roam Britain as unwanted animals if people were suddenly, en masse, to cut down on consuming them - and esecially if people turned en masse to free-range organically fed. Tesco's battery farms might take a hit though, and perhaps local butchers will prosper and abound!

 

[Commander]

If farmers get a raw deal I don't know why they do that job

And that completely underlines your lack of understanding on the subject.

 

[NMH]

It might be worth noting;
When you go to your doctor because you can't fight an infection off, and you must have antibiotics - if you eat non-organically raised produce, you already consume a variety of antibiotics......and on a constant, day to day basis!
That means that your own natural antibodies have been constantly over-ruled and reduced by those in what you eat.
Also, apart from your natural ability to fight infection - the BAD bacteria is in you DESPITE the fact that you have been constantly dosing yourself with battery-farm antibiotics....meaning, these bugs are IMMUNE to those antibiotics and don't care that you have them in you.

Now, what about your own natural defences - worthless in fighting the bug!

Next step.....you go to the doctor, and you are gonna need some heep good medicine to get rid of this glowing, strong and happy bug that has a hold on your unnatural chemical filled body.
Not funny for you!

What about these cows that are few products to gain weight, and are hybrid genetically encouraged to be huge?
Struggling with weight problems are we? Wonder why, when you ate those sulphites and hormones for din dins?
Skin problem? Could be something to do with hormones perhaps?
Nervous, rising blood pressure that can cause death? Ahem.
High cholesterol? Ahem.

I'll thank that farmer who charges a little more for organic, free range. He saves me money on medicine. He saves me time off work. His produce may allow years on my life. My quality of life may be enhanced, with me not struggling with cholesterol, fat, skin issues, fitness, medical problems. It might even reach to cancer, heart problems, alzheimers, parkinsons, MS, etc.

 

[NMH]

And that completely underlines your lack of understanding on the subject.

It's just as I thought, you are just keen on a wind up. Right from the start with your dismissal of the thread as unworthy, but a continuation of dismissive line of questioning. You did say you only had one question, but you have been a constant on a thread you didn't deem worthy of existence?

I admit I am not a farmer, and so can have no complete understanding on the subject. I merely live in the farmlands surrounded with farmers, cows, sheep, pheasant, rabbit, deer, chickens.

If you are NOT a farmer then commander, I hazard to mention that you cannot know shit, and little more than I do about farming.
Since you are obviously so knowledgable about farming, then tell me why these organic farmers I'm surrounded by, do what they do?
They can't be raking it in like those Tesco Farm lads, with the hormonally enhanced cattle and stacked chickens, so how and why do they do it?

 

[WATFORD zero]

I agree with most or your points NMH, but i always understood that veal was a part of the milk trade and that it if you have one, you have the other. (My understanding of the meat veal simply being a young calf). Remembering the trade in the export of live calfs to Europe, whenever i eat veal i try to make sure it is English veal as i believe the laws on the raising of veal are stricter in England than elsewhere in Europe.

I am happy to eat any meat as long as it is kept and killed humanely. As i said above, i believe Veal is a by product of the milk trade and would be interested if anyone could point me at a source of 'cruelty-free' veal.

 

[NMH]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=veal+cruelty&btnG=Google+Search


Try the above Watford zero, there are confirmations about veal as dairy produce. One I read was a bit biased, suggesting that the calves are kicked and dragged, before being placed in stalls - which is a bit ott considering that could happen to any animal.

Personally, I avoid veal altogether. I find some joints of pork are too similar if not better-tasting than veal (having tried it, before I found out how it got that way).
So, not only can I avoid it, I can eat something very similar anyway.

 

[Commander]

It's just as I thought, you are just keen on a wind up. Right from the start with your dismissal of the thread as unworthy, but a continuation of dismissive line of questioning. You did say you only had one question, but you have been a constant on a thread you didn't deem worthy of existence?

I admit I am not a farmer, and so can have no complete understanding on the subject. I merely live in the farmlands surrounded with farmers, cows, sheep, pheasant, rabbit, deer, chickens.

If you are NOT a farmer then commander, I hazard to mention that you cannot know shit, and little more than I do about farming.
Since you are obviously so knowledgable about farming, then tell me why these organic farmers I'm surrounded by, do what they do?
They can't be raking it in like those Tesco Farm lads, with the hormonally enhanced cattle and stacked chickens, so how and why do they do it?

As I said before, I only asked if it was worthy of it's own thread because your opening post was exactly the same as your one in another thread. It was only a passing comment.

And you're right, I'm not a farmer, but have lived in the countryside for most of my life, and know a lot of people who are. And, incidentally, most of them are organic farmers. Through my childhood we also kept chickens and ducks, eating and selling their eggs (and occasionally them).

My point is, that when you have ben brought up on a farm, with your parents as farmers, and their parents as farmers, the chances are you are going to carry on doing exactly what they have done. I don't think it's a job you can just change, like you suggested earlier.

For the record, I always try and buy organic meat because it tastes nicer for a start, and I never buy battery eggs- hence my upbringing detailed above.

What does annoy me (and I'm not accusing you specifically of this) is people who have lived in cities all their life moaning about foxhunting, fishing, eating meat etc, when they really have no idea what they are talking about. See what I mean?

 

[Meade's Ball]

I will hold paws on seaside walks with any animal solely raped in a humane way. If it is skewered by a gang of mallards or a bushy mongoose, i just can't begin a relationship with that much unsolvable burden or anal cross-bred pregnancy.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Anyone for a Dessie burger? They should be just about ripe now.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

My wife's been a vegetarian for over 20 years, but she doesn't preach to anyone else - she just lives her life according to her own chosen ethics. She would never wear fur, nor use animal-tested cosmetics, and I doubt if any of her 35 handbags are real leather.

They way I see it, we pretty much all have the facts. Some of us think hard about them and others tuck them away and choose not to think about them.

Every one of us knows that;

1. Most meat is full of chemicals, hormones, steroids, etc.
2. An excess of red meat is bad for your health
3. Battery chickens live a miserable life

etc etc etc

So we weigh these things up, factor in our morals, upbringing, conscience and we decide what we eat. As long as everone is comfortable with their own choice and is aware of the facts, go for it, but don't expect everybody else's views to equate with yours.

My wife cooks a different meal for each of us at least three or four nights a week, so I get some meat, though she would not ever cook veal, lamb or rabbit!

 

[Meade's Ball]

My wife's been a vegetarian for over 20 years, but she doesn't preach to anyone else -

She silently thinks she's better than everyone else though. Apart from me as i'm vegetarian and charitably top-drawer too.
Just our breaths have to smell more saintly than those chomping slayers who nestle in the moral gutter, AKA you.

 

[Les Biehn]

She silently thinks she's better than everyone else though. Apart from me as i'm vegetarian and charitably top-drawer too.
Just our breaths have to smell more saintly than those chomping slayers who nestle in the moral gutter, AKA you.

Flip mode, flip modes the greatest.

 

[NMH]

What does annoy me (and I'm not accusing you specifically of this) is people who have lived in cities all their life moaning about foxhunting, fishing, eating meat etc, when they really have no idea what they are talking about. See what I mean?

Well then wouldn't you agree that those people who moan and annoy you might also be bettered, if they also attempted to get to know about what they moan about?
If there is nothing said about it, and people blithely form opinion based on what the telly brings TO them, and remain ignorant of what they are even buying justaslongasitscheap, then I imagine they're none the wiser.

Personally, I am not, as you seem to suspect, a preaching vegetarian, as I do eat meat - but without wasting it (I have seen people discard meat as if it was going out of style), and avoiding eating it without some assurance that it is not encouraging cruelty. And no, this thread is not so I can tell the world what a good boy am I - but howabout city-folk remember that the shiny package once drew breath and was born to a mother, as they pick it up for sundry consumption later?

 

[Les Biehn]

What about boiling Lobsters? Is that ok?

 

[hans kraay fan club]

She silently thinks she's better than everyone else though.

That's fair enough. She is.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

as I do eat meat - but without wasting it (I have seen people discard meat as if it was going out of style),

I know exactly what you mean. Did you see that bitch Jan Leeming wantonly discard that perfectly good piece of kangaroo anus last night?

 

[NMH]

I know exactly what you mean. Did you see that bitch Jan Leeming wantonly discard that perfectly good piece of kangaroo anus last night?

Maybe it was broken?