[Help] A question about driver liability in an 'accident'

[WATFORD zero]

As noted in my original post: I had looked left. Then checked right, which is the direction from which the greatest risk would arise and therefore the logical place to check last.

But yes, I take your logic and suspect you may be right. However, I suspect I may also be at least partially right - the bus also had a responsibility to ensure that any overtake was conducted in a safe manner. As such, I wouldn't be surprised to have a 50-50 ruling in such a case.

Final word: as a general rule of thumb (and one I've always lived by having spent most of my driving life as a motorcyclist), the #1 rule is that as a driver you always have a responsibility to do everything you can to avoid an accident. it doesn't matter whose ultimate "fault" the accident would be legally / for insurance: if you can, through your own actions, avoid or prevent an accident ... you should.

Which is why in my case I was able to avoid it, and why in over 25 years as a driver/rider I've only ever had one incident, which was caused by a car driver deciding to turn right around a roundabout from a left-turn only lane while I turned left from the centre lane (as allowed by the markings), and I only classify it as an incident as my handlebar clipped his wing mirror. I'd thankfully left plenty of room between me and him on entry (using the furthest right I could in the centre lane).

Unfortunately it's a bit like the person doing an emergency stop on an open road for no reason whatsoever and you rear ending them. Logically and morally, I would suggest it is their fault. However, legally it's 100% yours.

I agree you do develop a '6th sense' over time, so often seeing what is likely to happen way ahead and I think it's the main reason young drivers have more accidents. Limiting them to 'slower' cars, higher insurance, black boxes, 6 points rule etc have all helped immensely. I was sitting behind the wheel of a 3 litre Capri within a few months of passing my test 40 years ago

And riding motorbikes is a great way of concentrating on developing your 6th sense

 

[WATFORD zero]

Not relevant here but isn’t it the opposite in France ? (as our coach driver learned to his cost on a late night tour of Paris on a school trip circa 1976)

It used to be known as priorité à droite, where you had to give way to anyone coming from your right (even if you were on a major road) if I remember correctly. I think this may have changed some years back as I have driven in France, last time a few years back, and don't recall doing it

 

[darkwolf666]

Afraid not, it would be your fault. When entering a major road from a minor, it is always your responsibility to check it's safe to emerge.

And you should always look left as well as right, even when turning left. There could be pedestrians crossing, vehicles on your side of the road because of parked cars or, as in this case, vehicles overtaking. Sorry

Although the bus driver overtaking the bicycle opposite a junction does also make him partly responsible, as this extract from a driving instructor website indicates...

"On certain roads, especially rural roads, such road markings may be non-existent. Overtaking at a junction is dangerous due to the lack of visibility for cars exiting the junction."

 

[WATFORD zero]

Although the bus driver overtaking the bicycle opposite a junction does also make him partly responsible, as this extract from a driving instructor website indicates...

"On certain roads, especially rural roads, such road markings may be non-existent. Overtaking at a junction is dangerous due to the lack of visibility for cars exiting the junction."

I agree completely that the bus driver is partly responsible and I'm sure the vast majority of driving instructors teach best practice. Unfortunately like the rear-ending situation I described above, the Law and Insurance Companies don't agree

 

[drew]

Although the bus driver overtaking the bicycle opposite a junction does also make him partly responsible, as this extract from a driving instructor website indicates...

"On certain roads, especially rural roads, such road markings may be non-existent. Overtaking at a junction is dangerous due to the lack of visibility for cars exiting the junction."

Not sure that changes a thing. If you can't see you proceed extra cautiously.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

It used to be known as priorité à droite, where you had to give way to anyone coming from your right (even if you were on a major road) if I remember correctly. I think this may have changed some years back as I have driven in France, last time a few years back, and don't recall doing it

Yeah, I hope you’re right ! I have driven in France many times over the years and hadn’t thought much about our school bus prang. Either I too have been very lucky or the rule has changed.

 

[smeariestbat]

It used to be known as priorité à droite, where you had to give way to anyone coming from your right (even if you were on a major road) if I remember correctly. I think this may have changed some years back as I have driven in France, last time a few years back, and don't recall doing it

We do this in norway. Its a nightmare. Toddling along a main road when someone approaches from a side road at 40kmh and swings straight out without even slowing down or looking, safe in the knowledge that if they do crash, its not their fault. So stressfull

 

[Mortdecai]

We do this in norway. Its a nightmare. Toddling along a main road when someone approaches from a side road at 40kmh and swings straight out without even slowing down or looking, safe in the knowledge that if they do crash, its not their fault. So stressfull ��

Same here in Finland. Bloody nightmare.

 

[Easy 10]

Yes. You're supposed to indicate left when exiting, even when going straight over.

For a standard 4-exit roundabout, it's pretty simple:

If turning left indicate left on approach, and continue to indicate left until exited.
If turning right indicate right on approach, and indicate left when exiting.
If going straight do not indicate on approach, and indicate left when exiting.

Where it gets gnarly is the UK's predilection towards roundabouts with 5, 6, 7 or more exits...

Utterly pointless. It might well be in the Highway Code, but if I'm going straight over a roundabout that has no left exit, then I never, ever indicate left. If someone does that in front of me I half-wonder whether they're about to pull over.

 

[zefarelly]

Unfortunately it's a bit like the person doing an emergency stop on an open road for no reason whatsoever and you rear ending them. Logically and morally, I would suggest it is their fault. However, legally it's 100% yours.

I agree you do develop a '6th sense' over time, so often seeing what is likely to happen way ahead and I think it's the main reason young drivers have more accidents. Limiting them to 'slower' cars, higher insurance, black boxes, 6 points rule etc have all helped immensely. I was sitting behind the wheel of a 3 litre Capri within a few months of passing my test 40 years ago

And riding motorbikes is a great way of concentrating on developing your 6th sense

a few years on bicycles, a few years on bike/scooters, then get a car . . . should be compulsory!

 

[zefarelly]

It used to be known as priorité à droite, where you had to give way to anyone coming from your right (even if you were on a major road) if I remember correctly. I think this may have changed some years back as I have driven in France, last time a few years back, and don't recall doing it

I think this is still something to be aware of in France, last time I went was 2018, one of the scooter gang has a house there and reminded us to watch out for it in Brittany, we were heading to Lorient from Cean.

Whether that was the locals out to get us or just an old law I don't know.

 

[Icy Gull]

I think this is still something to be aware of in France, last time I went was 2018, one of the scooter gang has a house there and reminded us to watch out for it in Brittany, we were heading to Lorient from Cean.

Whether that was the locals out to get us or just an old law I don't know.

Nah it is still the law in places

There are some towns in France where priority from the right is plain dangerous. Priority from side roads onto the main roads is just plain fecking madness. The locals don’t even look they just do it. There are signs as you enter a town that advise you that priority from the right onto main roads is the law, but easy to miss. I spend quite a bit of time in France and they are also very slowly getting an understanding of roundabouts (which are relatively new there) but you do need to expect some very bizarre driving around roundabouts.

 

[Audax]

Edit: stupid form duplicated my post when I tried to edit it...

 

[Audax]

And riding motorbikes is a great way of concentrating on developing your 6th sense

Removed it from the quote, but re: the emergency stop situation - that's because as the following vehicle, it is your responsibility to leave enough space to carry out your own emergency stop if the person in front does (whether they needed to or not). In a similar vein, I always go around blind corners on narrow roads slowly enough that I can make a full stop within the distance I can see. I've seen a lot of people who don't, and it's so risky.

Absolutely. That 6th sense thing is very, very true. The sort of stuff that I notice while on the road (even now I'm not riding as much) never ceases to amaze me. It's things like (even though not directly looking for it) spotting when someones fingers twitch on the steering wheel and you then instinctively give them space in case they change direction - it was that peripheral vision spot that saved me that day from the idiot turning right from a left-only lane. I picked up the hand movement to change the indicator before anything else, and had the bike picked up and brakes on immediately, which gave the driver the time and space to spot me. There's nothing like being on a motorcycle to help you develop the knack of spotting the subtle signs of what another driver might be thinking about doing - hand movements, head movements, I even watch in car wing-mirrors when filtering on the motorway as it's usually the first indication you get whether a) the driver has the mirror set so they can see you, and b) if they have, you can spot their eye movements and use those to predict if it's safe to move alongside or not.

I've long believed (since I was about 21, and that's far too far in my history now...) that spending some time on the roads on a motorcycle (as rider or as pillion) should be mandatory for all prospective young car drivers. That was an opinion I formed when my first wife, who enjoyed spending time on the back of a bike, told me very honestly that she'd never realised how many bikes were on the road until she'd spent time on the back with me, and that having made that realisation she's become a far more observant driver.

 

[Audax]

Utterly pointless. It might well be in the Highway Code, but if I'm going straight over a roundabout that has no left exit, then I never, ever indicate left. If someone does that in front of me I half-wonder whether they're about to pull over.

Note that the example I provided includes a left exit... And even in your no-left-exit scenario, a left indicator to signal you're getting off is still useful for the traffic coming the other way. Or at least, that's the intention of the rule. Unfortunately there's enough people out there who simply don't understand, or couldn't be bothered, that it becomes a guessing game a lot of the time regardless.

Also: the indicate on exit is not required for small roundabouts. Exactly how small a roundabout needs to be before that kicks in is, I believe, left open to interpretation.

 

[Easy 10]

Note that the example I provided includes a left exit... And even in your no-left-exit scenario, a left indicator to signal you're getting off is still useful for the traffic coming the other way. Or at least, that's the intention of the rule. Unfortunately there's enough people out there who simply don't understand, or couldn't be bothered, that it becomes a guessing game a lot of the time regardless.

Also: the indicate on exit is not required for small roundabouts. Exactly how small a roundabout needs to be before that kicks in is, I believe, left open to interpretation.

Don't even get me started on mini-roundabouts. They have turned what were previously perfectly operational simple t-junctions into hesitation zones where uncertainty rules. Anyone who has driven along Middle Road in Shoreham will know exactly what I'm talking about.

They are absolutely pointless and do nothing to aid the flow of traffic. Not to mention the endless speed humps along there making it akin to a stage of the Dakar Rally.

 

[drew]

Utterly pointless. It might well be in the Highway Code, but if I'm going straight over a roundabout that has no left exit, then I never, ever indicate left. If someone does that in front of me I half-wonder whether they're about to pull over.

Why do you bother indicating at all then? If you're on a roundabout (as opposed to a mini roundabout), you are expected to indicate to leave the roundabout, ie a left indicator. This will allow anyone waiting to join the roundabout where you're exiting to get ready to pull on to the roundabout. If you are not signalling to come off, they could reasonably assume you're going to the next exit.

Different for a mini roundabout because you don't change your signal, ie turning left, approach indicating left; straight ahead, no indicator; turning right, just right indicator on approach.

 

[Garage_Doors]

Utterly pointless. It might well be in the Highway Code, but if I'm going straight over a roundabout that has no left exit, then I never, ever indicate left. If someone does that in front of me I half-wonder whether they're about to pull over.

It may be pointless to you but not other drivers.
Its always been in the highway code.

 

[drew]

Note that the example I provided includes a left exit... And even in your no-left-exit scenario, a left indicator to signal you're getting off is still useful for the traffic coming the other way. Or at least, that's the intention of the rule. Unfortunately there's enough people out there who simply don't understand, or couldn't be bothered, that it becomes a guessing game a lot of the time regardless.

Also: the indicate on exit is not required for small roundabouts. Exactly how small a roundabout needs to be before that kicks in is, I believe, left open to interpretation.

No it isn't. You're confusing small with mini. Mini roundabouts are painted on the road and where necessary you can drive over part of the roundabout. All other roundabouts will have a kerb around the island. The size of the island is irrelevant, if it has a kerb then you should be signalling to come of the roundabout at whatever exit you are using.

 

[Easy 10]

Why do you bother indicating at all then? If you're on a roundabout (as opposed to a mini roundabout), you are expected to indicate to leave the roundabout, ie a left indicator. This will allow anyone waiting to join the roundabout where you're exiting to get ready to pull on to the roundabout. If you are not signalling to come off, they could reasonably assume you're going to the next exit.

Different for a mini roundabout because you don't change your signal, ie turning left, approach indicating left; straight ahead, no indicator; turning right, just right indicator on approach.

I'll always indicate left or right if I'm taking a left or right exit. If I'm going straight over I won't, because I won't be turning right / pulling across anyone coming the other way.

Anyway, I seem to have inadvertently stumbled into the most boring debate of my adult life. On a Friday as well. Time to visit the fridge I think.