One of the first things my driving instructor told me (in 1983) was ‘never take any notice of indicators when you’re pulling out at a junction....ALWAYS wait until you know the car is turning’
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[Help] A question about driver liability in an 'accident'
- Thread starter Harry Wilson's tackle
- Start date
Cheshire Cat
The most curious thing..
Guilty.
Driving without due care or attention.
Never rely on somebody indicating.
Driving without due care or attention.
Never rely on somebody indicating.
- Thread starter
- #63
Second that. If the other driver was on the main road and someone pulled out and hit them indicator or not fault will down to the driver coming out.
Also agree about the preferred repairers. Everyone wanted their claims and repairs authorised and done as quick as possible so Insurers let the recommended repairers authorise their own costs...licence to print money.
Now it’s one of the reasons and premiums increased but it was the moaning about getting estimates etc that lead to this so those that did can’t moan now. They’d be the first to whinge they had to get 2 or 3 estimates and the time it took. Also the amounts paid out for injury claims now is eye watering especially when most get a slight bump but are in agony for months
In another incident, where there was £1000 of repairs, the overall cost according to the insurer was £8000 (legals, admin, etc). It is an absolute racket. Part of the reason X decided to not chvvy insurerers in the case above was that even with a £3K hit the overall costs were way down compared with insurance involvement, so the imperative of insurers to soak X for years to come was vitiated. The *****.
I learnt in 1982 as well as coincidences should go. I learnt with a single-person driving school from Hangleton.
Perfidious Albion
Well-known member
My Mrs was prosecuted after pulling out of a country lane. A motorcycle appeared at some speed on the main road.There was a hidden dip, and foliage obstructing the view. He hit us by the rear wheel.
There was still no defence.
There was still no defence.
Brilliant replies chaps. Sorry for your loss, [MENTION=70]Easy 10[/MENTION].
I can reassure those concerned for the elderly that I was not involved in this cluster**** in any way. I can however bring a further fact into the debate. The second driver, the apparently innocent party, (let's call them X) was insured to drive their own car but not the car they were driving (which is owned by someone else, let's call them Y). Y had previously had X named on their insurance but had taken X's name off at last renewal because X rarely used Y's car . Y and X had forgotten this when X borrowed Y's car (yes, I know). This is why, despite the Y's car being muntered in the 'accident' , X and Y decided to just pay to have Y's car fixed and move on. The problem is, now, months later, the driver of the car 'pulling out' has decided to take X to court (even though their car was barely damaged).
I'm not sure the insurance situation has any bearing on the legality of who is responsible for the 'accident' but there is some concern that having to explain in court why this was not a simple insurance job may lead to sweaty-browed hand-wringing. The driver of the car pulling out is suing for over a grand. X and Y took legal advice and have offered the other driver half of that with a view to counter suing if the other driver carries on being a tit. Presently the latter hasn't responded. All rather tiresome.
I consulted my wife on the matter and she was quite adamant in her conclusion. I thought it best not to argue....
Things have slowed down . . . . many moons ago, returning from LeMans around 8-9pm on a Monday evening, we got from Pompey to Shoreham in 40 minutes. roundabouts at Chi taken at 70-75 MPH. (mk1 Lotus Elise)
And yes, I used indicators.
Weststander
Well-known member
The same year as me, I took my test at Hove.
There’s a lot of us about, the mid-60’s baby-boom.
- Jul 10, 2003
- 27,766
But staying in lane as per the law, of course
Driving West through those one night, the boy racer in front floored it on leaving the roundabout fish-tailed, and slammed it into the central reservation. I stopped my car and wound down the window. He got out and started to walk towards me, so I gave him a wanker sign and a big smile as I slowly pulled past him
I took my test in 1958 in Chichester.
I had to use hand signals for turning left and turning right, and for slowing down.
ah, can't remember the last time I waved my arm up and down out of the window.
probably after a big guff, by the dog!
Weststander
Well-known member
Looking online, that finished in 1975.
The generation after those who’d held a provisional at the end of WW2, being granted a full licence with no test in 1947!
Here's an interesting one for you, which thankfully I avoided having to find out an actual ruling on:
I'd approached a T-junction, coming up hill on a residential street and stopped with indicator on to look before turning left onto the main road (due to lack of visibility until you actually get to the junction). As I always do, I took a quick look to see what was coming from the left and noted nothing of significant concern (even though it should theoretically not be of concern as I was turning left, I always check anyway in case someone is overtaking), before checking to my right for any oncoming traffic that I would need to give way to.
Noting nothing close enough to prevent me making my left turn out of the junction, I started to make my move as I swivelled my head back around to look towards where I would be shortly going. And immediately slammed on the brakes as I was confronted with a bus half in its own lane and half in what would be "my" lane as it made a move to overtake a cyclist while also sweeping across the front of the junction. The cyclist had originally been hidden in a dip in the road, hence I hadn't noticed it when I first looked to the left.
Had I been a little harder on the accelerator (thankfully my little electric was in Eco mode, so the acceleration from standing is sluggish), or a little slower spotting the bus, I would have slammed into the side of it - the side that was significantly on the "wrong" side of the road.
I suspect the bus driver would be majority at fault in such a scenario - my feeling being that it would be ruled an unsafe overtaking attempt given the bus driver was in the best position to assess the situation (he should have noted the junction, my presence, my indicator, and the lack of oncoming traffic preventing my emergence, before deciding to make his overtake).
I'd approached a T-junction, coming up hill on a residential street and stopped with indicator on to look before turning left onto the main road (due to lack of visibility until you actually get to the junction). As I always do, I took a quick look to see what was coming from the left and noted nothing of significant concern (even though it should theoretically not be of concern as I was turning left, I always check anyway in case someone is overtaking), before checking to my right for any oncoming traffic that I would need to give way to.
Noting nothing close enough to prevent me making my left turn out of the junction, I started to make my move as I swivelled my head back around to look towards where I would be shortly going. And immediately slammed on the brakes as I was confronted with a bus half in its own lane and half in what would be "my" lane as it made a move to overtake a cyclist while also sweeping across the front of the junction. The cyclist had originally been hidden in a dip in the road, hence I hadn't noticed it when I first looked to the left.
Had I been a little harder on the accelerator (thankfully my little electric was in Eco mode, so the acceleration from standing is sluggish), or a little slower spotting the bus, I would have slammed into the side of it - the side that was significantly on the "wrong" side of the road.
I suspect the bus driver would be majority at fault in such a scenario - my feeling being that it would be ruled an unsafe overtaking attempt given the bus driver was in the best position to assess the situation (he should have noted the junction, my presence, my indicator, and the lack of oncoming traffic preventing my emergence, before deciding to make his overtake).
- Jul 10, 2003
- 27,766
Afraid not, it would be your fault. When entering a major road from a minor, it is always your responsibility to check it's safe to emerge.
And you should always look left as well as right, even when turning left. There could be pedestrians crossing, vehicles on your side of the road because of parked cars or, as in this case, vehicles overtaking. Sorry
- Jul 10, 2003
- 27,766
I quite often use hand signals now when I'm driving
I think it's only polite to enquire as to other drivers health, state of mind and recreational activities
Yes. You're supposed to indicate left when exiting, even when going straight over.
For a standard 4-exit roundabout, it's pretty simple:
If turning left indicate left on approach, and continue to indicate left until exited.
If turning right indicate right on approach, and indicate left when exiting.
If going straight do not indicate on approach, and indicate left when exiting.
Where it gets gnarly is the UK's predilection towards roundabouts with 5, 6, 7 or more exits...
Afraid not, it would be your fault. When entering a major road from a minor, it is always your responsibility to check it's safe to emerge.
And you should always look left as well as right. There could be pedestrians crossing, vehicles on your side of the road because of parked cars or, as in this case, vehicles overtaking. Sorry
As noted in my original post: I had looked left. Then checked right, which is the direction from which the greatest risk would arise and therefore the logical place to check last.
But yes, I take your logic and suspect you may be right. However, I suspect I may also be at least partially right - the bus also had a responsibility to ensure that any overtake was conducted in a safe manner. As such, I wouldn't be surprised to have a 50-50 ruling in such a case.
Final word: as a general rule of thumb (and one I've always lived by having spent most of my driving life as a motorcyclist), the #1 rule is that as a driver you always have a responsibility to do everything you can to avoid an accident. it doesn't matter whose ultimate "fault" the accident would be legally / for insurance: if you can, through your own actions, avoid or prevent an accident ... you should.
Which is why in my case I was able to avoid it, and why in over 25 years as a driver/rider I've only ever had one incident, which was caused by a car driver deciding to turn right around a roundabout from a left-turn only lane while I turned left from the centre lane (as allowed by the markings), and I only classify it as an incident as my handlebar clipped his wing mirror. I'd thankfully left plenty of room between me and him on entry (using the furthest right I could in the centre lane).
darkwolf666
Well-known member
Question for NSC hive mind.
If a person pulls out of a minor road (T junction) onto a main road and drives into the side of a car approaching him from his right, is the first person always at fault?
What if the first person claims the second person had their left indicator on, and the second person continued along the major road instead of turning left into the minor road?
What actually happened here is the driver of the second vehicle had indicated to turn left into the minor road, and then turned the indicator off having decided to stay on the major road, before reaching the junction. The second driver had seen the the first driver's indicator as the second driver approached from the right, then looked left and when the road on the left was clear, pulled out at some speed, driving into the side of the second driver's car.
In this case there is a concern that liability will be attributed to whoever can persuade a court that the second driver had or had not switched off their left indicator.
I'll suck up the low comedy in exchange for unequivocal advice
Driver one has clearly never ridden a motorbike, if so he would have waited for the deceleration and change of road position of the approaching vehicle before pulling out, something I still do to this day.
I have lost count of the number of times my back seat driver wife has told me I could go, only for the vehicle approaching to do exactly as you described!
Neville's Breakfast
Well-known member
Afraid not, it would be your fault. When entering a major road from a minor, it is always your responsibility to check it's safe to emerge.
Not relevant here but isn’t it the opposite in France ? (as our coach driver learned to his cost on a late night tour of Paris on a school trip circa 1976)