[Help] A question about driver liability in an 'accident'

[Easy 10]

As an aside, if a roundabout doesn't have a left turn, does anyone here indicate left to show that they are carrying on straight over ?

I was behind one of these muggles today. Bloody weirdos.

 

[portslade seagull]

I went into the back of a car a few years ago. The car in front was stopped at a large ovoid-shaped roundabout, and pulled out as I slowed down behind her. The way was clear, so I followed her doing about 20-25. As I went round the curve, the car suddenly stopped, without any warning, no brake lights and no discernable slowing. Basically, the driver was in second, and was changing into third, but put it into first instead. Thus effectively doing an emergency stop, but without any lights. Although I was a good two+ car lengths behind when we were both moving, by the time I realised the car in front had stopped (as there were no lights etc), I was probably only a car length away. So, I couldn't stop in time.

Wrote our car off as the airbags went. The car in front was some posher tank like thing, so £10k damage to a dented bumper.

I was deemed to be fault, on the basis that it is always the driver behind that is at fault - even though the driver in front couldn't stop apologising and accepting responsibility.

However, in a rare moment of goodwill, I don't think the insurance company really thought I was, as my premiums didn't go up at all (indeed, they went down the next year).

Same sort of thing happened to me.
At a T junction behind a car that had just pulled out in front of me from a parade of shops. The road was clear so they started pulling away, I followed probably just changing into 2nd gear when they stopped the brake lights weren't working so I bumped them thinking they were still moving.. The guy pulled in and ran into a shop. I had dented his bumper and tailgate. Also damaged my bumper and headlight.
I went into the shop which was a takeaway to give my details. Asked to see the driver who had just gone in. All i got was blank looks and denial anybody had gone in there. When explaining I just wanted to give my insurance details they said don't worry.
I had to go and pick my sons up from footy training and said I would pop back in. When I returned the driver was there he apologised to me and basically said nothing had happened and offered me some free food. We actually went outside where I pointed out the damage caused. He said it was already there
Really weird, can only think he was either uninsured, banned or not passed his test

 

[Deleted member 2719]

I hope no one was hurt, the main problem appears the driver at the junction did not even think once.



https://youtu.be/IYJYA0P5ls8

 

[Weststander]

Sorry, but I think you know the answer.

Same as someone above says, car in front does emergency stop for no apparent reason and you 'rear end' them, 'I thought the leaf was a young toddler blowing into the road', it's still your fault. Same as pulling out of a side road.

It's a bit of a pisser when you see some of the complete morons on the road, but you've been f***ed over and have to suck it up

And Insurance Companies won't give a toss as long as their 'preferred repairers' keep getting more profitable business, 'rent out' courtesy cars at outrageous prices and premiums keep going up. (I worked a bit in Insurance markets, can you tell ?)

4 years ago a pillock turned out of a rural side turning without stopping and looking taking out my week old car. He lied, but an independent witness stopped him in his tracks.

My car cost £11k to repair, his banger was a write off and the car rental bill at his insurers expense was ..... £9k. My insurers claims management middlemen and Enterprise Rent-A-Car had supplied me with a new Volvo XC70 for 6 weeks. Snouts feeding at the car accident trough.

This led to a protracted legal case between Hastings Direct (the liar’s insurer) and Enterprise Rent-A-Car. I was called as a witness at Bristol County Court, but thankfully they settled a few days before.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

So X was driving without insurance - a criminal offence?

I wouldn't have thought that would affect the question of whose fault the accident was - which seems to be agreed as the driver pulling out of the side road.

Sounds like a case where quietly settling out of court might be best, if agreement can be reached. And hope the CPS aren't reading NSC

Indeed. Unfortunately if the other driver doesn't accept the £500 offered it will mean court. If it means court it will mean a counter claim. The quandry of course is this: when I reported half the story here the response was unequivocal. If I had begun the tale with the second part of the story, the expression that springs to mind is 'contributory negligence'. Yes, it is clear (apparently) who was at fault, but with an uninsured driver involved, there is no smoke without fire, innit?

The other driver certainly knows now that X was not insured, but has not mentioned this in his legals. I suspect they are hoping if it goes to court X and Y will confess. X and Y have yet to decide whether to mention this or not; bottom line is the other driver is almost certainly taking the piss because he knows he's dealing with an uninsured driver and is hoping for a cash windfall. Will he stick with his claim or twist and accept the offer made? We shall see.

 

[jackanada]

Brilliant replies chaps. Sorry for your loss, [MENTION=70]Easy 10[/MENTION].

I can reassure those concerned for the elderly that I was not involved in this cluster**** in any way. I can however bring a further fact into the debate. The second driver, the apparently innocent party, (let's call them X) was insured to drive their own car but not the car they were driving (which is owned by someone else, let's call them Y). Y had previously had X named on their insurance but had taken X's name off at last renewal because X rarely used Y's car . Y and X had forgotten this when X borrowed Y's car (yes, I know ). This is why, despite the Y's car being muntered in the 'accident' , X and Y decided to just pay to have Y's car fixed and move on. The problem is, now, months later, the driver of the car 'pulling out' has decided to take X to court (even though their car was barely damaged).

I'm not sure the insurance situation has any bearing on the legality of who is responsible for the 'accident' but there is some concern that having to explain in court why this was not a simple insurance job may lead to sweaty-browed hand-wringing. The driver of the car pulling out is suing for over a grand. X and Y took legal advice and have offered the other driver half of that with a view to counter suing if the other driver carries on being a tit. Presently the latter hasn't responded. All rather tiresome.

The insurance situation does remind me of a friend of mine who crashed into another car, knowing him was probably over the limit too. It was entirely guess fault and being a new driver he really didn't want his premiums to skyrocket so swapped details and said he'd sort the bill for repairs.
He had to explain all this to his dad on getting home as obviously front of his car was far from mint.
Unfortunately for the other driver the dad answered the phone when the he called. Dad was very polite, said yes will pay for it, do you mind trying our garage for a quote etc and was close to concluding business and the other driver thanked him and said he'd really like to get it sorted asap as HE WASN'T INSURED.
Dad: That changes things somewhat
Idiot: What do you mean?
Dad: You're ****ed! {Hangs up}

 

[lawros left foot]

I had this happen to me a few years back.
I came off a roundabout and a car shot out of a side turning on my left and t boned me. The woman who hit me said my indicator was on to turn left, into the road she was pulling out of. I really don’t know if my indicator was going, it may have still been from me turning off the roundabout. Anyway, the copper who attended said it made no difference, she was 100% in the wrong.

My car was a write off, her car had a scuff on the bumper.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

20+ years insurance experience. Person pulling into traffic at fault. Indicators only 'indicate' what a driver will do, they should not be considered a guarantee someone will do something. It is the responsibility of the driver entering traffic to ensure they are pulling out safely and that means actually watching what drivers do, not assuming what the indicator says they will do.

Thanks

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The insurance situation does remind me of a friend of mine who crashed into another car, knowing him was probably over the limit too. It was entirely guess fault and being a new driver he really didn't want his premiums to skyrocket so swapped details and said he'd sort the bill for repairs.
He had to explain all this to his dad on getting home as obviously front of his car was far from mint.
Unfortunately for the other driver the dad answered the phone when the he called. Dad was very polite, said yes will pay for it, do you mind trying our garage for a quote etc and was close to concluding business and the other driver thanked him and said he'd really like to get it sorted asap as HE WASN'T INSURED.
Dad: That changes things somewhat
Idiot: What do you mean?
Dad: You're ****ed! {Hangs up}

But did dad take the uninsured driver to court to sue for damages? He might have done out of malice I suppose. Would he have won damages? Unlikely I would have thought. Uninsured drive possibly subjected to a separate proecution for driving without insurence, perhaps.

 

[vegster]

I don’t think there is an ‘indicator’ defence. Indicators are merely an expression of intent you are going to do something, not a cast iron guarantee. Personally I never believe other cars’ indicators as I am not putting my life in the hands of the decision making ability of someone I don’t know.

Very much this ! Indicators are no guarantee that a vehicle WILL turn in that direction..... I learned a valuable lesson in 1980 along these lines..... while riding my motorcycle behind a slow moving car that had indicated left while approaching a crossroads, imagine my surprise as the vehicle turned right instead of left just as i was about to accelerate past the " allegedly " left turning vehicle !

 

[WATFORD zero]

4 years ago a pillock turned out of a rural side turning without stopping and looking taking out my week old car. He lied, but an independent witness stopped him in his tracks.

My car cost £11k to repair, his banger was a write off and the car rental bill at his insurers expense was ..... £9k. My insurers claims management middlemen and Enterprise Rent-A-Car had supplied me with a new Volvo XC70 for 6 weeks. Snouts feeding at the car accident trough.

This led to a protracted legal case between Hastings Direct (the liar’s insurer) and Enterprise Rent-A-Car. I was called as a witness at Bristol County Court, but thankfully they settled a few days before.

It does piss me off. Most bumps, entail a bumper (front or back), knocking out and a bit of paint, £500 tops and £100 for a hire car for a couple of days. But it means a few people in the Insurance industry can buy a shiny suit

 

[mwrpoole]

Most insurances let you drive any car but only third party if you are not named on the insurance?

Used to be the case but may have changed

That is the case if you have your own insurance. If you don’t then you can’t drive anything unless named driver.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Very much this ! Indicators are no guarantee that a vehicle WIIL turn in that direction..... I learned a valuable lesson in 1980 along these lines..... while riding my motorcycle behind a slow moving car that had indicated left while approaching a crossroads, imagine my surprise as the vehicle turned right instead of left just as i was about to accelerate past the " allegedly " left turning vehicle !

A few years on a bike does help focus your 'road awareness'

 

[Icy Gull]

That is the case if you have your own insurance. If you don’t then you can’t drive anything unless named driver.

True, you have to have comprehensive insurance on your own car

 

[lawros left foot]

My car after the ‘shunt’

 

[mwrpoole]

Indeed. Unfortunately if the other driver doesn't accept the £500 offered it will mean court. If it means court it will mean a counter claim. The quandry of course is this: when I reported half the story here the response was unequivocal. If I had begun the tale with the second part of the story, the expression that springs to mind is 'contributory negligence'. Yes, it is clear (apparently) who was at fault, but with an uninsured driver involved, there is no smoke without fire, innit?

The other driver certainly knows now that X was not insured, but has not mentioned this in his legals. I suspect they are hoping if it goes to court X and Y will confess. X and Y have yet to decide whether to mention this or not; bottom line is the other driver is almost certainly taking the piss because he knows he's dealing with an uninsured driver and is hoping for a cash windfall. Will he stick with his claim or twist and accept the offer made? We shall see.

That’s how I see it once you explained full picture. Would X & Y go to court though? Huge risk surely as they run the risk of getting the police involved for driving without insurance etc. I suspect the other driver will stick and hope they get cold feet.

 

[Weststander]

Thanks

It does piss me off. Most bumps, entail a bumper (front or back), knocking out and a bit of paint, £500 tops and £100 for a hire car for a couple of days. But it means a few people in the Insurance industry can buy a shiny suit

It was an eye opener about what a legal racket it all is.

As I was not at fault and my insurer LV were brilliant from the first phone call, it didn’t cost me a penny, also with no loading of the subsequent year’s premium, so I must admit I was selfishly relieved.

As for the 28 year old numbnuts that cause the whole saga, I had no sympathy. His future premiums must be horrendous. The people at the builders merchants where he’d pulled out from said he was an accident waiting to happen, flying out on to the main road on every visit.

 

[Bob!]

As an aside, if a roundabout doesn't have a left turn, does anyone here indicate left to show that they are carrying on straight over ?

I was behind one of these muggles today. Bloody weirdos.

I would indicate left just before my exit the to advise my intention of leaving the roundabout

 

[studio150]

Highway Code Rule 170

not assume, when waiting at a junction, that a vehicle coming from the right and signalling left will actually turn. Wait and make sure

Case closed.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

That is the case if you have your own insurance. If you don’t then you can’t drive anything unless named driver.

This is all true. However X and Y were told that there is one exception. If you are the spouse then you are not insured. Small print. If X had let his pal drive his car, and his pal had his own insurance to drive his own car, he would have been insured. As X had let his spouse drive his car this made her uninsured to drive his car.