5th Test: Sydney : 23:30 Start.

[Ernest]

Watching a bit last night and you could tell they just wanted to get home but they have a load of one dayers coming up. Too much arrogance and thinking the series was already won was at the bottom of it and until you change that mindset it won't change on the field

 

[vegster]

Watching a bit last night and you could tell they just wanted to get home but they have a load of one dayers coming up. Too much arrogance and thinking the series was already won was at the bottom of it and until you change that mindset it won't change on the field

Lots of changes for the one day squad but the agony will still continue for Cook, Bell and Broad.

 

[Arkwright]

It's quite simple, Australia have out played us in all aspects of the game had a settle XI and got into a winning habit.

Australia have made the most of home advantage by producing hard bouncy wickets, last summer we produced wickets which favoured us, green, slow and low. They have two quality quick's and we are not use to playing against 90mph bowlers.

I wouldn't change it too much but I would change the County Championship to two overseas players so our younger batters get use to playing against quality quick and spin bowlers and our bowlers get use to bowling better line and length against better overseas players and not just playing against home grown journeymen playing for a contract.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Lots of changes for the one day squad but the agony will still continue for Cook, Bell and Broad.

Is Cook in the one-day squad? He should go home, have a rest and get ready for the English summer. Should not go to the Windies or the 20-20 malarky either.

 

[Pavilionaire]

It's very hard to judge the genuine ability of the debutantes when they've been thrust into a hopeless situation with the senior pros unable to provide any guidance.

On the face of it all three have not got many runs or wickets but what does this tell us? Ballance looked OK for a while then misjudged a bouncer, took it in the grill and was out moments later. His technique didn't look too good there.

I said these three shouldn't have played and I stick by that. They're tainted by participation, and now the Aussies have been exposed to their flaws.

As for Graeme Swann, enjoy your retirement and media work but what a way to expose your captain to more pressure. Hindsight will show Swann's timing to be catastrophic following Trott's unfortunate withdrawal from the tour.

I still remain a big Cook fan as a batsmen though. What he has achieved is remarkable and without him the side would be even weaker.

 

[big nuts]

It's very hard to judge the genuine ability of the debutantes when they've been thrust into a hopeless situation with the senior pros unable to provide any guidance.

On the face of it all three have not got many runs or wickets but what does this tell us? Ballance looked OK for a while then misjudged a bouncer, took it in the grill and was out moments later. His technique didn't look too good there.

I said these three shouldn't have played and I stick by that. They're tainted by participation, and now the Aussies have been exposed to their flaws.

As for Graeme Swann, enjoy your retirement and media work but what a way to expose your captain to more pressure. Hindsight will show Swann's timing to be catastrophic following Trott's unfortunate withdrawal from the tour.

I still remain a big Cook fan as a batsmen though. What he has achieved is remarkable and without him the side would be even weaker.

I agree with all that, except I would have played Ballance. I think this innings will have done him good, despite a modest run return. He almost certainly won't face a more difficult position walking out and he aquitted himself well for his 18 and looked a well organised player up until the bouncer.

Swann should have guts it out as his left his team mates and as you mentioned captain right up shit creak. A really selfish move in my view and whilst I'll always remember Swann fondly for his achievements, he has tarnished that by a very selfish move.

 

[vegster]

I agree with all that, except I would have played Ballance. I think this innings will have done him good, despite a modest run return. He almost certainly won't face a more difficult position walking out and he aquitted himself well for his 18 and looked a well organised player up until the bouncer.

Swann should have guts it out as his left his team mates and as you mentioned captain right up shit creak. A really selfish move in my view and whilst I'll always remember Swann fondly for his achievements, he has tarnished that by a very selfish move.

When Swann walked it was interesting to see that it was a solo press conference to announce it. I think that says a lot about what Cook and Flower thought about his decision. IE, " Thanks mate, we are already in the shite and you have just immersed us, You tell the press on your own."

Now as the further slide has continued apace I think the time has come to dump Cook as captain. He was a poor captain 6 months ago and he won't get better and now his batting has gone too.

 

[vegster]

Is Cook in the one-day squad? He should go home, have a rest and get ready for the English summer. Should not go to the Windies or the 20-20 malarky either.

Yes, he is captaining the one day team according to Cricinfo......

http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/squad/698917.html

 

[Bold Seagull]

It's very hard to judge the genuine ability of the debutantes when they've been thrust into a hopeless situation with the senior pros unable to provide any guidance.

On the face of it all three have not got many runs or wickets but what does this tell us? Ballance looked OK for a while then misjudged a bouncer, took it in the grill and was out moments later. His technique didn't look too good there.

I said these three shouldn't have played and I stick by that. They're tainted by participation, and now the Aussies have been exposed to their flaws.

Ben Stokes is tainted by participation? I don't think so.

Many players have to make their debuts in adversity - it is not unusual for this to happen, especially when dislodging well established senior players - this is their big chance and is often within series defeats. This will be character building for any player. Many of England's greats had their debuts when England were struggling. I seem to remember Vaughan coming in when we were smashed in SA in '99. Some of them should have played at the end of the summer - if selectors and the coaches had been doing their jobs properly.

I don't think you can cotton wool players waiting for a more convenient debut. Stick them in. In Stokes we may have found an absolute gem. Maybe.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Yes, he is captaining the one day team according to Cricinfo......

http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/squad/698917.html

So he is. Give the captaincy to Broad or Morgan and go home Mr Cook to get ready to score 1000 runs in the summer tests.

 

[vegster]

Ben Stokes is tainted by participation? I don't think so.

Many players have to make their debuts in adversity - it is not unusual for this to happen, especially when dislodging well established senior players - this is their big chance and is often within series defeats. This will be character building for any player. Many of England's greats had their debuts when England were struggling. I seem to remember Vaughan coming in when we were smashed in SA in '99. Some of them should have played at the end of the summer - if selectors and the coaches had been doing their jobs properly.

I don't think you can cotton wool players waiting for a more convenient debut. Stick them in. In Stokes we may have found an absolute gem. Maybe.

I think that the only chance you have to break in to a team is via severe adversity of the previous incumbents unless there is a bad injury. This sort of thing has happened before and will happen again, the likes of Trott,Bell,KP and Prior were fireproof coming in to this series, only from disaster will we see a change.

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

I agree with the comments about Swann. For someone so talented and outspoken who frequently taunted others for their weaknesses I did not have him down as a choker, which is how the timing of his decision to bale out appears. I don't see his situation like Trott, whose head was clearly elsewhere.

I have some sympathy for the new players thrown in for this Test - they are talented and yes it is valuable experience that might (or might not) serve them well in the long term but it is taking a hell of risk that they don't come away as damaged goods, while also gifting the Aussies a psychological advantage over them next time we meet. But having blooded them I hope they now persevere with Balance and Borthwick rather than discard them.

I don't think anyone foresaw the extent of our batting and fielding ineptitude. Plus Cooks captaincy has been naïve. Who else would be an effective Captain? I'm not sure. Bell and Broad aren't exactly in top form and don't need the extra distraction of Captaincy. I suspect Cook will keep the job by default when he could really do with rediscovering his best batting form.

The selection policy has been curious too - Carberry is not one for the future, so why drop Root when his form isn't much worse?

Who else is next in line for selection - James Taylor was pencilled in because of his form but didn't make the final Ashes squad and maybe his slight stature counted against him, I wonder how he would have got on against Mitchell Johnson?

A year ago English cricket seemed to be in a reasonable good place, ok we had lost the no.1 ranking but there seemed to be potential cover and youngsters emerging in all depts. but now it looks vulnerable and the future is uncertain. On the bright side it is an opportunity for new players to seize their chance and for the coaching staff and selectors to reflect on their own performance too.

 

[big nuts]

Ben Stokes is tainted by participation? I don't think so.

Many players have to make their debuts in adversity - it is not unusual for this to happen, especially when dislodging well established senior players - this is their big chance and is often within series defeats. This will be character building for any player. Many of England's greats had their debuts when England were struggling. I seem to remember Vaughan coming in when we were smashed in SA in '99. Some of them should have played at the end of the summer - if selectors and the coaches had been doing their jobs properly.

I don't think you can cotton wool players waiting for a more convenient debut. Stick them in. In Stokes we may have found an absolute gem. Maybe.

To a lesser extent Graham Thorpe made his debut in the 3rd ashes test being 2-0 down. He scored 114 not out in our second innings and whilst it didn't win us the game (McCague, Illot, Such & Caddick were our four man attack) he helped us draw which was a vast improvement on previous matches.

According to cricinfo we had four debutants in that match! McCague, Illot, Lathwell & Thorpe. 1 out of 4 ratio, probably evidence that England need to veer away from huge wholesale changes.

 

[vegster]

To a lesser extent Graham Thorpe made his debut in the 3rd ashes test being 2-0 down. He scored 114 not out in our second innings and whilst it didn't win us the game (McCague, Illot, Such & Caddick were our four man attack) he helped us draw which was a vast improvement on previous matches.

According to cricinfo we had four debutants in that match! McCague, Illot, Lathwell & Thorpe. 1 out of 4 ratio, probably evidence that England need to veer away from huge wholesale changes.

Yes, heard examples where players have been brought in in a rush and it seems that 1 in 3-4 actually come through to cement a place, Stokes is a cert, Root needs to up his game as does Bairstow. Ballance and Rankin I'm not so sure about but lets give them a go.

 

[Bold Seagull]

According to cricinfo we had four debutants in that match! McCague, Illot, Lathwell & Thorpe. 1 out of 4 ratio, probably evidence that England need to veer away from huge wholesale changes.

Or, this is evidence again that selectors and management wait too long before making changes, then are forced into bringing in too many debutants in one go.

What is plain for the last 12 months is that England have faffed about with selection. Woakes, Kerrigan were selected for the 5th test in the summer - why if they weren't going to feature in the winter?

We've played too many players out of form hoping they'll return to form. We've got ourselves into the habit of having a side of undroppables. We're now in the situation where the horse has already bolted, and we're having to play too many inexperienced players at once. Writing was on the wall well before this series. Serious questions have to be asked why Stokes, Ballance etc. haven't been used up until this point.

I can't see any clear strategy for the evolution of the team. What has happened is that it hasn't evolved naturally, and so we are left in disarray.

If we get Ben Stokes out of this series, then great, but it was a debut far too late. Carberry should have played that 5th test at least in the summer. It was a rubber afterall. It all stinks of poor planning, too many 'cooks' if you'll excuse the pun.

 

[big nuts]

Or, this is evidence again that selectors and management wait too long before making changes, then are forced into bringing in too many debutants in one go.

What is plain for the last 12 months is that England have faffed about with selection. Woakes, Kerrigan were selected for the 5th test in the summer - why if they weren't going to feature in the winter?

We've played too many players out of form hoping they'll return to form. We've got ourselves into the habit of having a side of undroppables. We're now in the situation where the horse has already bolted, and we're having to play too many inexperienced players at once. Writing was on the wall well before this series. Serious questions have to be asked why Stokes, Ballance etc. haven't been used up until this point.

I can't see any clear strategy for the evolution of the team. What has happened is that it hasn't evolved naturally, and so we are left in disarray.

If we get Ben Stokes out of this series, then great, but it was a debut far too late. Carberry should have played that 5th test at least in the summer. It was a rubber afterall. It all stinks of poor planning, too many 'cooks' if you'll excuse the pun.

Ideally you want to drip feed players into a winning side and we have attempted that but to no real success. Collingwood's retirement opened up the number six berth, and Morgan, Bopara, Bairstow, Root & Taylor have failed to nail it down. With Strauss's retirement again Root, Carberry & Compton have failed to cement a place.

At the back end of last summer we played two new players Kerrigan was a disaster and Woakes done ok but didn't convince. I don't think you can blame the selectors for keeping faith in players who have vast experience and good records.

 

[Buffalo Seagull]

From the BBC website

1. The aggregate score of all of England's first innings in this series is 969. The aggregate first-innings score of Australia's last five batsmen - its not-batsmen, in other words - is 1,071.

 

[Worthingite]

I've kind of been avoiding these threads and the cricket for my own mental wellbeing, but last night was just, wow

For what it's worth, and without getting into an argument with anyone, I do think now is the time for some big changes.

Many people have been critical of Cooks captaincy, I know I bickered a bit with Vegster and others on here in the summer about how negative he is but I was a bit loath to criticise all the the time we were winning. I had the same arguments with my mates about Strauss, but I think it's pretty clear now that the Cook and Strauss by the book brand of captaincy was based on having an established group of senior batsmen who were all averaging around the 50 mark coupled with Swann, Broad and Anderson at the top of their game. If they are going to bring new players through we need someone more positive and dynamic at the helm. My only worry about keeping Flower is that he's presided over this type of captaincy and it isn't going to change while he's at the top.

Cook, Bell and KP stay as the senior batsmen. Broad and Anderson stay as the senior bowlers. Stokes has earned his place. Every other position is up for grabs and I'd like to see it go to a promising youngster with no baggage and just allow them to play without fear. Make KP or Broad captain.

Sorry are you on drugs?!?!? KP had the captaincy, but chucked it away after his "character" got the better of him one too many times with the ECB. The time has come to put him out to pasture, along with Anderson. Carberry has shown he's not up to it, so send him off with them. Next test side I'd like to see would be this.....

Cook
Root
Compton
Stokes
Ballance
Bairstow
Broad
Finn
Tremlett
Panesar (for now)

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

Sorry are you on drugs?!?!? KP had the captaincy, but chucked it away after his "character" got the better of him one too many times with the ECB. The time has come to put him out to pasture, along with Anderson. Carberry has shown he's not up to it, so send him off with them. Next test side I'd like to see would be this.....

Cook
Root
Compton
Stokes
Ballance
Bairstow
Broad
Finn
Tremlett
Panesar (for now)

I might retain Bell and maybe give Onions a go instead of Tremlett?

I'm not sure Anderson should be discarded yet. Ok he didn't take advantage of the helpful conditions at the SCG but he is so much more effective in English conditions.

 

[knocky1]

From the BBC website

1. The aggregate score of all of England's first innings in this series is 969. The aggregate first-innings score of Australia's last five batsmen - its not-batsmen, in other words - is 1,071.

From the BBC ' When England are inevitably bowled out in this Test it will be the first time they will lose all 100 wickets in a 5 Test Ashes series'.

Also BBC 'When Rogers got 7 from Bairstows wild overthrow, with a single shot, the 36-year-old short-sighted colour-blind Rogers had scored as many as any of England's first five batsmen managed in their entire innings'.