5th Test: Sydney : 23:30 Start.

[Mo Gosfield]

So you would dump the youngest ever batsmen to 8000 test runs and potentially our best batsman ever? Don't think Clarke has scored many this series either has he?
The major difference between the teams has been Brad Haddin - had we skittled him out cheaply every innings, it would have been a lot closer.

Potentially our best batsman ever........hold on............ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha..........
Think I've regathered my composure now...Yes....thats it....I can carry on now. You can trot out the fact that he is the youngest player to reach 8000 Test runs. So what. He has done it in an era of the poorest standard of Test cricket in living memory. He hasn't the technique or mental fibre to try and turn this series round. Strauss, Pietersen and Bell have filled their boots in this era as well and none of them are the highest class either.
I reckon I could name plenty of England batsman better than Cook without even trying hard..........here goes.
Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hammond, Hutton, Compton, May, Cowdrey, Barrington, Boycott, Edrich, Gooch, Gower and Lamb. They are all better than Cook. If you want me to start a list of players as good as Cook, then we could be here a very long time.
You've fallen into the trap of believing all the hype about him. He's been very lucky being around in this era. If these fairly ordinary Aussies can rip him to shreds God knows what he would have done facing Marshall, Holding, Garner, Roberts etc steaming in for six hours.
( p.s There has been a lot more difference between these sides than Brad Haddin )

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Oh joy unbounded. The ECB have announced that Andy Flower is to continue in his role. So thats normal service resumed then!
The ' Essex love-in ' rolls on. No major changes anywhere, just a little bit of gentle tinkering to keep everyone happy. Flower stays after this impressive job Down Under. Oh I forgot, he was doing a good job before this, so we can just brush this debacle under the carpet and start all over again. No planning, no foresight, no anticipation. Poor decision making throughout the series. Sitting back and letting us be whitewashed and humiliated. But hey...everything is fine. Flower is the right man for the job even if the wheels have completely come off. Its like continuing to support a football manager, who has a couple of decent seasons and then loses 10 games on the spin. ( He would be sacked )
He and his captain have the responsibility of getting the mindset right for this series. They have both failed miserably. In fact its getting worse as the series goes on. They have both demonstrated that they cannot cope with pressure and are mentally weak. They have allowed this squad to be beaten ( mentally ) into submission and yet they are ( apparently ) the right men to take England forward.
Words fail me ( which is rare! )....I just give up.....Let the complacency continue....lets carry on picking our favourite senior pro's even though they keep failing....lets not think about the future....lets not learn. The ECB had a chance to send a message out to England cricket fans that this shambles is not good enough. They have let us all down by condoning this pathetic display.
Perhaps they are not fit for purpose?

 

[KZNSeagull]

Potentially our best batsman ever........hold on............ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha..........
Think I've regathered my composure now...Yes....thats it....I can carry on now. You can trot out the fact that he is the youngest player to reach 8000 Test runs. So what. He has done it in an era of the poorest standard of Test cricket in living memory. He hasn't the technique or mental fibre to try and turn this series round. Strauss, Pietersen and Bell have filled their boots in this era as well and none of them are the highest class either.
I reckon I could name plenty of England batsman better than Cook without even trying hard..........here goes.
Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hammond, Hutton, Compton, May, Cowdrey, Barrington, Boycott, Edrich, Gooch, Gower and Lamb. They are all better than Cook. If you want me to start a list of players as good as Cook, then we could be here a very long time.
You've fallen into the trap of believing all the hype about him. He's been very lucky being around in this era. If these fairly ordinary Aussies can rip him to shreds God knows what he would have done facing Marshall, Holding, Garner, Roberts etc steaming in for six hours.
( p.s There has been a lot more difference between these sides than Brad Haddin )

Is Tendulkar crap as well then as he has played a hell of a lot of Tests against poor teams in a poor era?

He has had a very bad tour, not helped by 2 of his senior places walking out because they cannot handle the pressure. But he has had bad tours before and come back stronger. And he will again. He is 28 and coming into his prime as a batsman. He certainly needs a rest, that's for sure, but to dump him altogether? Madness. Any current team in the world would pick Cook. Not as Captain, mind. And yes, he will become England's highest run scorer irrespective of the opposition.

So where is all this English talent waiting to take his place then? Carberry has really staked a claim hasn't he?

I do not believe the hype about him. I can see with my eyes that he is the best English player, when on form, that I have seen for a long, long time.

Yes, there has been a lot of difference other than Brad Haddin but my point is that if England had got rid of him cheaply every time, the Aussie bowlers would have been defending totals of 200 odd instead of charging in with gay abandon. Things would have been closer but would also have papered over the cracks in the England team.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Oh joy unbounded. The ECB have announced that Andy Flower is to continue in his role. So thats normal service resumed then!
The ' Essex love-in ' rolls on. No major changes anywhere, just a little bit of gentle tinkering to keep everyone happy. Flower stays after this impressive job Down Under. Oh I forgot, he was doing a good job before this, so we can just brush this debacle under the carpet and start all over again. No planning, no foresight, no anticipation. Poor decision making throughout the series. Sitting back and letting us be whitewashed and humiliated. But hey...everything is fine. Flower is the right man for the job even if the wheels have completely come off. Its like continuing to support a football manager, who has a couple of decent seasons and then loses 10 games on the spin. ( He would be sacked )
He and his captain have the responsibility of getting the mindset right for this series. They have both failed miserably. In fact its getting worse as the series goes on. They have both demonstrated that they cannot cope with pressure and are mentally weak. They have allowed this squad to be beaten ( mentally ) into submission and yet they are ( apparently ) the right men to take England forward.
Words fail me ( which is rare! )....I just give up.....Let the complacency continue....lets carry on picking our favourite senior pro's even though they keep failing....lets not think about the future....lets not learn. The ECB had a chance to send a message out to England cricket fans that this shambles is not good enough. They have let us all down by condoning this pathetic display.
Perhaps they are not fit for purpose?

Now that I do agree with.

 

[Gwylan]

I can see no reason why Johnson and Harris should have been so bad in England but so good now and virtually unplayable.

You didn't watch the Ashes series in England, did you?

 

[BensGrandad]

You didn't watch the Ashes series in England, did you?

Yes I did, that was a comparative remark as our batsmen, or at least one of them, had the measure of them to win the series but at the moment we have no idea of how to cope with them.

 

[pasty]

Didn't bother to stay up watching last night as I had so little expectation. Just got up and checked the score. At least I wasn't disappointed. Pathetic

 

[Gwylan]

Yes I did, that was a comparative remark as our batsmen, or at least one of them, had the measure of them to win the series but at the moment we have no idea of how to cope with them.

Well, you couldn't have been watching too closely. Johnson didn't play in the series and Harris was probably the best pace bowler on either side. He only played in four matches but still took 24 wickets at an average of under 20. I really fail to see how that can be described as rubbish

 

[big nuts]

Yes I did, that was a comparative remark as our batsmen, or at least one of them, had the measure of them to win the series but at the moment we have no idea of how to cope with them.

No you didn't Johnson didn't play and Harris was their leading wicket taker at around twenty per wicket, and bowled beautifully throughout.

 

[JCL - the new kid in town]

Yes I did, that was a comparative remark as our batsmen, or at least one of them, had the measure of them to win the series but at the moment we have no idea of how to cope with them.

One difference is that they are bowling well as a unit not giving away cheap runs and creating pressure whoever is bowling like England used to do so effectively

 

[JCL - the new kid in town]

No you didn't Johnson didn't play and Harris was their leading wicket taker at around twenty per wicket, and bowled beautifully throughout.

This however in England they knew they had to just see out the Harris overs and then they would score runs from the others. There was a definite sigh if relief when Harris got injured, an underrated bowler by a lot of people or perhaps unnoticed to a degree

 

[big nuts]

Oh joy unbounded. The ECB have announced that Andy Flower is to continue in his role. So thats normal service resumed then!
The ' Essex love-in ' rolls on. No major changes anywhere, just a little bit of gentle tinkering to keep everyone happy. Flower stays after this impressive job Down Under. Oh I forgot, he was doing a good job before this, so we can just brush this debacle under the carpet and start all over again. No planning, no foresight, no anticipation. Poor decision making throughout the series. Sitting back and letting us be whitewashed and humiliated. But hey...everything is fine. Flower is the right man for the job even if the wheels have completely come off. Its like continuing to support a football manager, who has a couple of decent seasons and then loses 10 games on the spin. ( He would be sacked )
He and his captain have the responsibility of getting the mindset right for this series. They have both failed miserably. In fact its getting worse as the series goes on. They have both demonstrated that they cannot cope with pressure and are mentally weak. They have allowed this squad to be beaten ( mentally ) into submission and yet they are ( apparently ) the right men to take England forward.
Words fail me ( which is rare! )....I just give up.....Let the complacency continue....lets carry on picking our favourite senior pro's even though they keep failing....lets not think about the future....lets not learn. The ECB had a chance to send a message out to England cricket fans that this shambles is not good enough. They have let us all down by condoning this pathetic display.
Perhaps they are not fit for purpose?

It's been a really disappointing tour and I can understand your point of view, but who are you bringing in to replace Flower? Giles? Flower has produced some very fine teams, producing in the main excellent results. This is the first major aberration and I feel he deserves an opportunity to turn it round.

And as tempting as it is, I wouldn't jettison all of our experience, we need Cook, Bell & Pietersen and hopefully Trott to help the younger players. In terms of bowling Broad and Anderson are still more than good enough at test level and Stokes shows promise despite being expensive.

Our spinner is a huge concern and to a lesser extent wicket keeper. Swann is a huge loss and if we aren't backing Panesar (he should have played in Sydney) I would be tempted to develop Root's off spin as there is no one in county cricket pulling up trees.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Is Tendulkar crap as well then as he has played a hell of a lot of Tests against poor teams in a poor era?

He has had a very bad tour, not helped by 2 of his senior places walking out because they cannot handle the pressure. But he has had bad tours before and come back stronger. And he will again. He is 28 and coming into his prime as a batsman. He certainly needs a rest, that's for sure, but to dump him altogether? Madness. Any current team in the world would pick Cook. Not as Captain, mind. And yes, he will become England's highest run scorer irrespective of the opposition.

So where is all this English talent waiting to take his place then? Carberry has really staked a claim hasn't he?

I do not believe the hype about him. I can see with my eyes that he is the best English player, when on form, that I have seen for a long, long time.

Yes, there has been a lot of difference other than Brad Haddin but my point is that if England had got rid of him cheaply every time, the Aussie bowlers would have been defending totals of 200 odd instead of charging in with gay abandon. Things would have been closer but would also have papered over the cracks in the England team.

1) I'm only advocating relieving Cook of the captaincy. He's simply not up to it. He will come again as a batsman..he's just shot to bits at the moment. He needs time to regroup, mentally. I just disagree with your suggestion that he has the potential to be one of Englands best ever players. He will end up a very good player, not a great player. He is playing in an era where the standard is not great and he is also playing a lot more Test cricket. All important factors.
His technique is not the best and he has done well to manufacture a style of play that brings him plenty of runs. When his confidence is high, he looks the real deal but that confidence is fragile and then his limitations are exposed under pressure ( as now )
2) I wouldn't have picked Carberry. Decent County pro, not Test class.
3) Haddin has had a very good series and has shown Prior how to knuckle down and get runs, rather than give in and chuck it away. The Aussie top order is so ordinary that they make Haddin look good. He has also been helped by inept England bowling. If the Aussies had got rid of Bell cheaply every time in the summer, they would be defending the Ashes now, not regaining them.

 

[big nuts]

One difference is that they are bowling well as a unit not giving away cheap runs and creating pressure whoever is bowling like England used to do so effectively

Very much this - As a unit they have complimented each other well and have all contributed match winning spells at times. Same as their batsman who barring Bailey have all been in the runs. Wickets fell this morning for Australia but Rogers stood up and moved the scoreboard along, something we haven't done.

The problem we have with this 5 man attack with two debutants is that Australia know they have to see Anderson & Broad off and runs will flow facing Borthwick who hasn't mastered the very difficult art of leg spin and Boyd-Rankin who has been awful and a poor pick based on this evidence. Panesar had to play in these conditions again poor from the selectors and harsh on Borthwick who has potential but whose first class record with the ball is average. Boyd-Rankin is Warwickshire's fourth seamer so seems very much a selection based on height rather than ability. Onions would have had a field day on this wicket.

 

[brakespear]

hopefully better result when i wake up later than yesterday morning.

 

[Paddy B]

How can so many class players lose form at the same time? (Cook, Pietersen, Bell, Prior, Anderson, Swann) The answer surely must lie in the team management. OK losing our rock of a number 3 firstly to poor form then to health issues was a huge blow, but there has to be more than that.

So the ECB decide that Flower should continue? Strange decision. So where do we go from here? Well given the management (and likely the captaincy) will remain, firstly a few tweaks to the team for the SL/India series. Still not sure on opening partner for Cook. Carberry hasn't worked so either Compton/Taylor/Root. Ballance has shown some decent signs and Stokes has done enough.

Bowling? Who knows!

 

[vegster]

Oh joy unbounded. The ECB have announced that Andy Flower is to continue in his role. So thats normal service resumed then!
The ' Essex love-in ' rolls on. No major changes anywhere, just a little bit of gentle tinkering to keep everyone happy. Flower stays after this impressive job Down Under. Oh I forgot, he was doing a good job before this, so we can just brush this debacle under the carpet and start all over again. No planning, no foresight, no anticipation. Poor decision making throughout the series. Sitting back and letting us be whitewashed and humiliated. But hey...everything is fine. Flower is the right man for the job even if the wheels have completely come off. Its like continuing to support a football manager, who has a couple of decent seasons and then loses 10 games on the spin. ( He would be sacked )
He and his captain have the responsibility of getting the mindset right for this series. They have both failed miserably. In fact its getting worse as the series goes on. They have both demonstrated that they cannot cope with pressure and are mentally weak. They have allowed this squad to be beaten ( mentally ) into submission and yet they are ( apparently ) the right men to take England forward.
Words fail me ( which is rare! )....I just give up.....Let the complacency continue....lets carry on picking our favourite senior pro's even though they keep failing....lets not think about the future....lets not learn. The ECB had a chance to send a message out to England cricket fans that this shambles is not good enough. They have let us all down by condoning this pathetic display.
Perhaps they are not fit for purpose?

Ah, but, at least thanks to Flower the nosh was good.

 

[Billy the Fish]

I've kind of been avoiding these threads and the cricket for my own mental wellbeing, but last night was just, wow

For what it's worth, and without getting into an argument with anyone, I do think now is the time for some big changes.

Many people have been critical of Cooks captaincy, I know I bickered a bit with Vegster and others on here in the summer about how negative he is but I was a bit loath to criticise all the the time we were winning. I had the same arguments with my mates about Strauss, but I think it's pretty clear now that the Cook and Strauss by the book brand of captaincy was based on having an established group of senior batsmen who were all averaging around the 50 mark coupled with Swann, Broad and Anderson at the top of their game. If they are going to bring new players through we need someone more positive and dynamic at the helm. My only worry about keeping Flower is that he's presided over this type of captaincy and it isn't going to change while he's at the top.

Cook, Bell and KP stay as the senior batsmen. Broad and Anderson stay as the senior bowlers. Stokes has earned his place. Every other position is up for grabs and I'd like to see it go to a promising youngster with no baggage and just allow them to play without fear. Make KP or Broad captain.

 

[Beach Hut]

This has been a monumental fail however we have to accept the blooding of new players was not done very well.

 

[KZNSeagull]

1) I'm only advocating relieving Cook of the captaincy. He's simply not up to it. He will come again as a batsman..he's just shot to bits at the moment. He needs time to regroup, mentally. I just disagree with your suggestion that he has the potential to be one of Englands best ever players. He will end up a very good player, not a great player. He is playing in an era where the standard is not great and he is also playing a lot more Test cricket. All important factors.
His technique is not the best and he has done well to manufacture a style of play that brings him plenty of runs. When his confidence is high, he looks the real deal but that confidence is fragile and then his limitations are exposed under pressure ( as now )
2) I wouldn't have picked Carberry. Decent County pro, not Test class.
3) Haddin has had a very good series and has shown Prior how to knuckle down and get runs, rather than give in and chuck it away. The Aussie top order is so ordinary that they make Haddin look good. He has also been helped by inept England bowling. If the Aussies had got rid of Bell cheaply every time in the summer, they would be defending the Ashes now, not regaining them.

All good points.

Re 1. My concern with Cook is that he gets dumped prematurely like Gower was (although Gower was older). In the absence of anyone pushing him for a place, then this is unlikely, and he will go on to score bucket loads more runs for England, that I am sure. His captaincy is not up to much, I agree, but he is getting a lot of flack over it, most of which should be aimed at the management team imo. In this day and age, I believe the captain just carries out the management teams orders on the pitch and if he is doing it wrong, a message will quickly be sent out to change it. So I would blame them myself, not the Captain 90% of the time.