12 year old shot dead in America

[vegster]

The problem, as always, is guns. America has a heavily armed polulation which has to be policed by even heavier armed officers. Called to a playground in the US by someone concerned that a juvenile was waving a gun around, the police would suspect that it was highly probable it was real so they acted accordingly. It this had happened here the police would have had a more cautious approach and gone in with the mindset that it was highly unlikly that it was a real gun. As it was the Police acted as they would and another life is over, cue riots and a investigation and then life goes on as normal.

Really sad but the Septics will always have this problem and it will go on until the guns go.

 

[Sergei's Celebration]

I'll guess you've never fired a handgun.

Don't go down that route Edna, you'll end up trying to educate people one by one!

 

[Lady Whistledown]

Nope, unless firing toy guns counts.

OK. In which case you'll have to take my word for it that "shooting to disable" as many of the public would have it, is nigh on impossible to all but the most lethal of marksmen, and I mean top sniper class.

Aiming for somebody's hand, as is regularly suggested, is a waste of time. Too small & too fast moving. Even the legs are a small target & easily missed (also running a greater risk of shooting someone in the background).

The reason police are trained to hit the centre body mass is because it's the largest target area, quite simply.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

Don't go down that route Edna, you'll end up trying to educate people one by one!

Maybe, I don't know a lot about this particular case. I'm only trying to get to this "shoot to disable" myth, which I'm sure you know as well as I do is a hopeless idea.

 

[The Wizard]

You can call it what you want pal and fabricate it as much as you like...It takes a second to kill and he made the right decision at the time.

Yes he may have had a tip off about a fake gun etc..but that's all it is a tip off.
The officer did the correct thing and other youngsters should remember this next time they wanna piss around with replica guns.

He was a 12 year old child, not an adult making a concious decision to go out and piss about with a fake gun, I don't disagree that the police officer had to make a judgement call and I'm sure the bloke is probably feeling unimaginably bad now. There's so many cases like this in America though, as a few other posters have said I suspect the root cause is the sheer amount of people who do carry genuine weapons about that the police live in a constant state of paranoia.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

Being part of the British police force, surely you cannot defend this? You know better than anyone the efforts our police would have gone to to keep any suspect alive, let alone a child. The US police will shoot to kill anyone they suspect of having a weapon, like the old man who pulled out a walking cane a few months ago. It's disgraceful.

Wasn't debating the case, only this "shoot to disable" thing that people with little concept of how firearms work often bring up

 

[Hillian1]

Being part of the British police force, surely you cannot defend this? You know better than anyone the efforts our police would have gone to to keep any suspect alive, let alone a child. The US police will shoot to kill anyone they suspect of having a weapon, like the old man who pulled out a walking cane a few months ago. It's disgraceful.

In America, the bad guys tend to have better guns than the Police.

It's terrible that a child has lost his life like this, but I'm not sure that American Police go out to shoot children on purpose, whatever their race.

 

[StonehamPark]

I still think shooting a kid in the leg would have solved the problem and raised the chances of him living.

Yes it would have solved the problem. However, if your suspect is 15-20m in front of you, pointing a pistol/gun in your direction, you have 2 seconds to make one of 3 decisions:

A: Verbally negotiate with the suspect to surrender the weapon (possible outcome = your death).
B: Aim for the arm or leg, a very small and narrow target at 15m. This will temporarily disable the suspect. However, you MUST have an impeccable aim and you MUST get it right first time or again, possible outcome = your death.
C: Aim for the chest. The biggest target with the highest chance of keeping yourself and colleagues alive.

 

[sir albion]

12 years or 20 years makes no DIFFRENCE im afraid as at that age they know enough to not play around with guns or provoke with them.Kids at that age tend to show off and like you say the paranoia is out of control,but very much understandable as gun crime is bloody way out of control there.
I bet there is loads of 12 year olds over there in gangs etc looking to prove a point.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

I know nothing about firearms, I won't pretend that I do - but on the rare event that British police use a firearm, it will almost always be shoot to disable won't it? Like the Lee Rigby murderer who was shot in the hand, leg and stomach.

No. Never.

If he was shot in the hand, I guarantee you that it wasn't aimed there.

Shoot to stop, is the policy. Centre body mass is the target for the reasons outlined above. People get rounds in the leg or hand because having to pull that trigger in a high stress situation against a moving target affects even the most accurate of marksmen.

 

[pastafarian]

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/26/video-tamir-rice-shooting-police-peace-loving-boy

If they were going to shoot, why could they not have shot to disable rather than kill? A child weilding a fake toy gun. Only in America

Not sure what the Police are expected to do here.

The kid was waving about a gun that looks just as realistic as the real thing,i notice the video has been edited and the footage of him aiming the gun(and presumably scaring the crap) at passers by in a public park has been removed.

As for aiming to disable this is a bit of a hollywood myth,i like to think of myself as quite a good shot but handguns are ridiculously difficult even at very very close range.

Sad a kid is dead but what on earth was he thinking waving a gun with the safety features removed in a public place

 

[Creaky]

What I don't understand is that in the clip one officer stands out in the open only feet away from the boy whilst the second officer sensibly stays in cover behind the police cruiser.

This raises two points, if the officer thought the boy's gun was real then why did he not seek cover and secondly whether the boys gun was real or not the better tactic I would have thought would have been for both officers to remain protected whilst trying to 'talk down' the lad.

 

[The_Viper]

The USA in general is just a horrible nation.

Their police are militarised, corrupt and trigger happy. They systematically get away with murder and they shoot to kill. They send SWAT squads into innocent peoples homes. They routinely shoot dogs just for approaching them. They tazer people who are already restrained. They are very much shoot first, ask questions later. Despicable nation & police force.

Have you got enough tar for that brush pal?

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

What I don't understand is that in the clip one officer stands out in the open only feet away from the boy whilst the second officer sensibly stays in cover behind the police cruiser.

This raises two points, if the officer thought the boy's gun was real then why did he not seek cover and secondly whether the boys gun was real or not the better tactic I would have thought would have been for both officers to remain protected whilst trying to 'talk down' the lad.

For all we know that could be how they're trained to handle a situation like that. The officer out in the open is reliant on his partner covering him.

 

[1234andcounting]

In America, the bad guys tend to have better guns than the Police.

It's terrible that a child has lost his life like this, but I'm not sure that American Police go out to shoot children on purpose, whatever their race.

I am not sure the figures support this. And the disparity between black and white children shot is a factor of 21! If white kids were shot at the same rate, one would be killed each week.

 

[ofco8]

I am very fond of the USA and have been there 9 times. My oldest friend also lives there. I have never felt threatened by violence but I have to say that their whole gun policy does dismay me.

 

[brakespear]

The problem, as always, is guns. America has a heavily armed polulation which has to be policed by even heavier armed officers. Called to a playground in the US by someone concerned that a juvenile was waving a gun around, the police would suspect that it was highly probable it was real so they acted accordingly. It this had happened here the police would have had a more cautious approach and gone in with the mindset that it was highly unlikly that it was a real gun. As it was the Police acted as they would and another life is over, cue riots and a investigation and then life goes on as normal.

Really sad but the Septics will always have this problem and it will go on until the guns go.

spot on.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Disagree. They've lied through there teeth anyway, apparently he was asked multiple times to drop the weapon yet the video clearly shows that did not happen, he was shot within seconds of the police arrival. Trying to defend the police actions here is impossible IMO.

As was posted earlier in this thread 'I predict a riot'

And you were there, and saw it with your own eyes?

Thought not.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Genuine question. Have you any personal experience of using firearms?

Excellent question.

 

[wellquickwoody]

OK. In which case you'll have to take my word for it that "shooting to disable" as many of the public would have it, is nigh on impossible to all but the most lethal of marksmen, and I mean top sniper class. .

No point CMS applying at the end of his football career then?