12 year old shot dead in America

[The Wizard]

And you were there, and saw it with your own eyes?

Thought not.

I wasn't, does that means I can't have an opinion or do you have to physically be there to have an opinion now? It's a free country, you know.

However, this still doesn't take say from the fact that the police say he was asked to drop the weapon on more than one occasion, when he quite clearly wasn't.

 

[Commander]

OK. In which case you'll have to take my word for it that "shooting to disable" as many of the public would have it, is nigh on impossible to all but the most lethal of marksmen, and I mean top sniper class.

Aiming for somebody's hand, as is regularly suggested, is a waste of time. Too small & too fast moving. Even the legs are a small target & easily missed (also running a greater risk of shooting someone in the background).

The reason police are trained to hit the centre body mass is because it's the largest target area, quite simply.

I never saw Jack Bauer struggle with it.

 

[beorhthelm]

If they were going to shoot, why could they not have shot to disable rather than kill?

security forces are trained to shot to incapacitate. they are trained to aim for the torso as it is a larger area than trying to get an arm or leg, and les likly to be in motion. if you hit an arm or a leg the assailent is still threat.

 

[Gullys Cats]

Those pesky kids playing with toy guns in playgrounds.

 

[beorhthelm]

However, this still doesn't take say from the fact that the police say he was asked to drop the weapon on more than one occasion, when he quite clearly wasn't.

having watched the video twice, i really dont see how you can be so sure, i cant tell when a shot is fired, and certainly not what is said. and tbh if its said only once and the gun is pointed at you, are you really going to wait and ask again nicely?

 

[vegster]

This really is a pointless debate, because of the US gun culture the cops did what they usually do, shoot first. I remember the late Robin William's take on it, over here your cops just say "stop ....... or I'll say stop again "

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

The USA in general is just a horrible nation.

Their police are militarised, corrupt and trigger happy. They systematically get away with murder and they shoot to kill. They send SWAT squads into innocent peoples homes. They routinely shoot dogs just for approaching them. They tazer people who are already restrained. They are very much shoot first, ask questions later. Despicable nation & police force.

That's an incredibly sweeping statement.

I loathe their gun laws, and their 'right to bear arms' but to say the USA is a 'horrible' and 'dispicable' nation is a crazy generalisation.

Can I ask how many times you've been there, and indeed how often you travel there?

 

[drew]

When you see the video it is very difficult to defend the Police. If they weren't aware it might have been a toy gun (which they should have been because that is what the caller had suggested), why did they pull up so close? Surely would have been better to park further away and approach on foot!

The other crucial issue is why to US cops seemingly shoot to kill rather than lower the guns and shoot to disable!


Edit: Have seen a few of the posts from Edna re shoot to disable. In this case they may well have seen the gun but in the case of Michael Brown, there was no suggestion he was armed so surely the training then should be to shoot below the waist?

 

[lawros left foot]

I seem to recall a senior Northern Irish police officer warning kids in Belfast,not to play with toy guns on the streets as it could lead to them being shot. I don't think the O.B. over there ever shot a kid by accident though, in what was a much more stressful situation for all the security services

 

[Hastings gull]

Originally Posted by Mustafa View Post

from Mustafa

The USA in general is just a horrible nation.

Their police are militarised, corrupt and trigger happy. They systematically get away with murder and they shoot to kill. They send SWAT squads into innocent peoples homes. They routinely shoot dogs just for approaching them. They tazer people who are already restrained. They are very much shoot first, ask questions later. Despicable nation & police force.
That's an incredibly sweeping statement.I loathe their gun laws, and their 'right to bear arms' but to say the USA is a 'horrible' and 'dispicable' nation is a crazy generalisation.

Can I ask how many times you've been there, and indeed how often you travel there?

That's an incredibly sweeping statement.

I loathe their gun laws, and their 'right to bear arms' but to say the USA is a 'horrible' and 'dispicable' nation is a crazy generalisation.

Can I ask how many times you've been there, and indeed how often you travel there?

I am glad that I am not the only person who thinks said gentleman comes out with huge sweeping statements, and then when challenged, he starts with the usual slogans, and then says that I am uncompromising. Whilst I am sure that there is a grain of truth, in fact possibly even more so, to the notion that the nation is gun crazy and the police trigger happy, what an unbelievable exaggeration.

 

[beorhthelm]

Edit: Have seen a few of the posts from Edna re shoot to disable. In this case they may well have seen the gun but in the case of Michael Brown, there was no suggestion he was armed so surely the training then should be to shoot below the waist?

in the Michael Brown case, the training should be not to shoot an unarmed person.

 

[vegster]

Of course you can, I've been twice. Had a great time both times, thought the American people were great - they deserve better.

But the nation itself is despicable. The wars, imperialism and the social, economic and racial inequality there is a disgrace. The corrupt, violent, even murderous nature of their police epitomises all that is wrong with that country.



Those are just the first that sprang to mind. But every day there is an atrocity committed by US police released on social media, I daren't even think about how many aren't caught on camera. Of course there will be many good cops too, but there is a murderous culture over there within their forces that is unimaginable to us, being so fortunate to have such a fantastic and peaceful police force like we do.

Ours make mistakes and choose the wrong actions too sometimes but usually that does not result in a death.

 

[drew]

in the Michael Brown case, the training should be not to shoot an unarmed person.

To be fair, if a bloke twice your size is coming at you then you need to do something! A tazer would of course have been considerable better.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

A child wielding a fake toy gun. Only in America

How do they know its a child? How do they know its a fake toy gun? Police probably already seriously strung out post-Ferguson riots. Not the best time for anyone to be waving a gun around in public.

 

[Gilliver's Travels]

Just when you'd imagine a case like this that coincided with the Ferguson protests would attract enormous publicity, initial reports of the boy's death were followed next day by a complete news blackout across all mainstream UK (and possibly US) media. How very strange!

 

[pastafarian]

not sure how in a split second you are supposed to recognise this as a toy gun

 

[The Wizard]

not sure how in a split second you are supposed to recognise this as a toy gun

View attachment 60436

I'm not sure that's the point, we know the gun looks fairly real but when the emergency caller said it was a child and that the gun was probably fake - the police force should have taken that into account and considered their actions before using firearms. Kids do stupid things and this lad has paid the ultimate price that's the worst thing in all this.

I find the way some parts of the American police force act absolutely abhorrent as I said earlier though perhaps the paranoia is understandable given gun crime there is rife beyond belief, this all stems from a country too tolerant of guns. Another question is how the bloody hell did the lad get his hands on a BB gun?

 

[pastafarian]

I'm not sure that's the point, we know the gun looks fairly real but when the emergency caller said it was a child and that the gun was probably fake - the police force should have taken that into account and considered their actions before using firearms.

But it sort of is the point,the lady taking the emergency call was yes informed the gun might not be real but crucially she did not pass this info on to the officers that attended,only that a gun was involved.

you then have 2 police turning up to a gun incident and seeing the handgun pictured above and having to make a split second decision

 

[Da Man Clay]

I'm not sure that's the point, we know the gun looks fairly real but when the emergency caller said it was a child and that the gun was probably fake - the police force should have taken that into account and considered their actions before using firearms. Kids do stupid things and this lad has paid the ultimate price that's the worst thing in all this.

I find the way some parts of the American police force act absolutely abhorrent as I said earlier though perhaps the paranoia is understandable given gun crime there is rife beyond belief, this all stems from a country too tolerant of guns. Another question is how the bloody hell did the lad get his hands on a BB gun?

What an untrained, unable to ascertain, member of the public with no firearms training 'might' think would have pretty much zero bearing on any risk assessment. Especially when they turned up and it looked like that. Whilst your stance is great from a hindsight position, it's kinda irrelevant as your in possession of all the facts.

 

[Jim Van Winkle]

Our police treat all human beings lives, criminals or not, of absolute importance. Of course there will be bad eggs, but the culture in our forces is to protect and serve - and to avoid violence at all costs.

Spot the difference:

Thanks for the sweeping generalisations about the US, you've made yourself look like a complete plonker. As for the above comment, two words: Ian Tomlinson.