[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

Wardy's twin · Tuesday at 11:39 AM

Eric the meek said:
You are almost certainly right. I recall the propagandists have several times said things to the effect of 'why does Russia need democracy?' and 'why do you want us to be like you?'. That messaging will have come straight from the Kremlin of course. It is afraid of democracy.

Remember this?

Problem is most ordinary Russians are confusing anarchy and democracy , they know what happened when the authoritarian communist government crashed was not good for them as many became worse off economically and they lost the comfort blanket (be it quite thin) that the government provided.

It was a big mistake thinking that democracy would work straight away in a country that did not have 'understanding' to make it work and then the gangs/criminals/oligarchs/old politicians all stepped in to take the pie (all of it not just a slice) and people retreated to the stability of the communist party and all that brings.

nevergoagain · Tuesday at 1:34 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c627n83ezlwo Explosion in the engine room?, how very careless.

raymondo · Tuesday at 1:55 PM

Binney on acid · Tuesday at 2:20 PM

Negotiating peace with a guy that makes Hitler look like a girl guide by comparison. That'll be interesting....

hampshirebrightonboy · Tuesday at 2:38 PM

raymondo said:

If Trump does achieve a fair, sustainable and secure peace in the near term I will take back all I've said about him. However, I suspect I will continue to consider him a absolute tool.

Eric the meek · Tuesday at 2:53 PM

hampshirebrightonboy said:
If Trump does achieve a fair, sustainable and secure peace in the near term I will take back all I've said about him. However, I suspect I will continue to consider him a absolute tool.

I'm cautiously optimistic, given his recent announcement that he will continue to support Ukraine (although we don't know the detail of that), and he has set the bar high for all Nato members to contribute 5% of their GDP.

That means he supports Nato and sees a need for it to be well funded. This is good news for the west, and bad news for Putin.

Trump remains unpredictable of course.

SeagullinExile · Tuesday at 5:34 PM

hampshirebrightonboy said:
If Trump does achieve a fair, sustainable and secure peace in the near term I will take back all I've said about him. However, I suspect I will continue to consider him a absolute tool.

He’ll demand that Ukraine give up it’s claims to Crimea and Donbas. No way will they agree to that, I quiet rightly too.

sparkie · Tuesday at 5:56 PM

SeagullinExile said:
He’ll demand that Ukraine give up it’s claims to Crimea and Donbas. No way will they agree to that, I quiet rightly too.

I don't think it is out of the question actually.

Crimea - it can be argued that it isn't historically welded to Ukraine.
It was in the Russian Soviet Republic and then transferred to the Ukrainian Soviet Republic as a swap for Ukrainian lands around Rostov.
I don't reckon it's a deal breaker.

Donbas - we are talking about a border on the map and whatever the Donbas wasteland is worth now. A deal can be done where that line is drawn.

But it needs to be a deal - not a capitulation to all Putin's wish list of demands. Ukraine needs to win something.

What would Ukraine gain on the plus side ? It has to gain security guarantees so Putin cannot come back for more after a pause. NATO membership or French/UK/EU troops as a permanent presence on the ground, with 8-10 more patriot batteries and being armed to the teeth might do it.

raymondo · Tuesday at 6:15 PM

Security guarantees would have to be rock solid re Crimea, because of it's controlling location for Black Sea shipping.
The Donbas contains huge mineral wealth that Ruzzia want their hands on - I don't know what % of that is currently under Ruzzia occupation.

SeagullinExile · Tuesday at 6:57 PM

sparkie said:
I don't think it is out of the question actually.

Crimea - it can be argued that it isn't historically welded to Ukraine.
It was in the Russian Soviet Republic and then transferred to the Ukrainian Soviet Republic as a swap for Ukrainian lands around Rostov.
I don't reckon it's a deal breaker.

Donbas - we are talking about a border on the map and whatever the Donbas wasteland is worth now. A deal can be done where that line is drawn.

But it needs to be a deal - not a capitulation to all Putin's wish list of demands. Ukraine needs to win something.

What would Ukraine gain on the plus side ? It has to gain security guarantees so Putin cannot come back for more after a pause. NATO membership or French/UK/EU troops as a permanent presence on the ground, with 8-10 more patriot batteries and being armed to the teeth might do it.

Don’t let Russia take 1 inch of Ukrainian territory. It will only embolden them for future land grabs. We did this with Hitler and Czechoslovakia, that ended well.

Binney on acid · 2024-12-25T08:48:12+0000

Having just read the BBC news articles about Russia targeting Ukraine's energy infrastructure on Christmas Day, I'm incandescent. I have come to the conclusion that the only way to end this special military operation quickly is to turn Moscow into a sheet of glass. I hate myself for thinking like this, but you can't sit around a table and negotiate with a bunch of deranged, psychotic nazis. How much longer must Ukrainian innocents suffer ? How many innocent lives must be lost ? how many families will be torn apart ? Generally speaking, the west are preoccupied with doing ostrich impersonations. My heart bleeds for the oppressed. Slava Ukraini !

beorhthelm · 2024-12-25T10:11:40+0000

sparkie said:
I don't think it is out of the question actually.

Crimea - it can be argued that it isn't historically welded to Ukraine.
It was in the Russian Soviet Republic and then transferred to the Ukrainian Soviet Republic as a swap for Ukrainian lands around Rostov.
I don't reckon it's a deal breaker.

Donbas - we are talking about a border on the map and whatever the Donbas wasteland is worth now. A deal can be done where that line is drawn.

But it needs to be a deal - not a capitulation to all Putin's wish list of demands. Ukraine needs to win something.

What would Ukraine gain on the plus side ? It has to gain security guarantees so Putin cannot come back for more after a pause. NATO membership or French/UK/EU troops as a permanent presence on the ground, with 8-10 more patriot batteries and being armed to the teeth might do it.

people will need to make their peace with this, because Ukraine probably will in the end. losing Crimea for a fixed border and NATO membership seems a strategic win for Ukraine.

fly high · 2024-12-25T10:31:11+0000

Binney on acid said:
Having just read the BBC news articles about Russia targeting Ukraine's energy infrastructure on Christmas Day, I'm incandescent. I have come to the conclusion that the only way to end this special military operation quickly is to turn Moscow into a sheet of glass. I hate myself for thinking like this, but you can't sit around a table and negotiate with a bunch of deranged, psychotic nazis. How much longer must Ukrainian innocents suffer ? How many innocent lives must be lost ? how many families will be torn apart ? Generally speaking, the west are preoccupied with doing ostrich impersonations. My heart bleeds for the oppressed. Slava Ukraini !

Must admit this morning I was tinged with sadness as I thought of the people of Ukraine having to endure another Christmas at war and the men & women on the front line fighting for their lives. Then after reading the same BBC article and anger and disgust.
To all of you on here who have family and friends in Ukraine a special thought. Hope for the future and happy Christmas to all.

Eric the meek · 2024-12-25T10:33:26+0000

Binney on acid said:
Having just read the BBC news articles about Russia targeting Ukraine's energy infrastructure on Christmas Day, I'm incandescent. I have come to the conclusion that the only way to end this special military operation quickly is to turn Moscow into a sheet of glass. I hate myself for thinking like this, but you can't sit around a table and negotiate with a bunch of deranged, psychotic nazis. How much longer must Ukrainian innocents suffer ? How many innocent lives must be lost ? how many families will be torn apart ? Generally speaking, the west are preoccupied with doing ostrich impersonations. My heart bleeds for the oppressed. Slava Ukraini !

I had wondered if Russia would do something like this on Christmas Day.

When you consider that Putin has announced a new agreement with Iran, that he will sign on January 19, the day before Trump's inauguration, you can see where this is going. He has no absolutely no intention of any peace.

It may not seem like it, but it is possible, if Trump then decides to arm Ukraine to the teeth, that this may prove to be the best outcome for Ukraine.

Eric the meek · 2024-12-25T10:35:12+0000

fly high said:
Must admit this morning I was tinged with sadness as I thought of the people of Ukraine having to endure another Christmas at war and the men & women on the front line fighting for their lives. Then after reading the same BBC article and anger and disgust.
To all of you on here who have family and friends in Ukraine a special thought. Hope for the future and happy Christmas to all.

Seconded. Let's hope that 2025 will be a much better year.

raymondo · 2024-12-25T12:30:14+0000

Eric the meek said:
I had wondered if Russia would do something like this on Christmas Day.

When you consider that Putin has announced a new agreement with Iran, that he will sign on January 19, the day before Trump's inauguration, you can see where this is going. He has no absolutely no intention of any peace.

It may not seem like it, but it is possible, if Trump then decides to arm Ukraine to the teeth, that this may prove to be the best outcome for Ukraine.

Yep I'm feeling the same at the moment... better that Putin shows his true colours (=no intention of peace) and the support for Ukraine, and sanctions against Ruzzia, intensify .

raymondo · 2024-12-25T12:31:20+0000

fly high said:
Must admit this morning I was tinged with sadness as I thought of the people of Ukraine having to endure another Christmas at war and the men & women on the front line fighting for their lives. Then after reading the same BBC article and anger and disgust.
To all of you on here who have family and friends in Ukraine a special thought. Hope for the future and happy Christmas to all.

Thank you for your thoughts and hopes...much appreciated

essbee1 · 2024-12-25T13:58:29+0000

Binney on acid said:
Having just read the BBC news articles about Russia targeting Ukraine's energy infrastructure on Christmas Day, I'm incandescent. I have come to the conclusion that the only way to end this special military operation quickly is to turn Moscow into a sheet of glass. I hate myself for thinking like this, but you can't sit around a table and negotiate with a bunch of deranged, psychotic nazis. How much longer must Ukrainian innocents suffer ? How many innocent lives must be lost ? how many families will be torn apart ? Generally speaking, the west are preoccupied with doing ostrich impersonations. My heart bleeds for the oppressed. Slava Ukraini !

I feel sad and guilty that here we are cooking and drinking etc and because of that **** in Moscow the people of Ukraine can't even
stay warm. I cherish the day when that sub-human gets his. And big time.

A1X · 2024-12-25T14:04:48+0000

Worth remembering in the Second World War that both sides paused their bombing campaigns on Christmas Day

That said, isn’t Christmas on 6th January in the Russian Orthodox Church?

Eric the meek · 2024-12-25T14:17:07+0000

Is Belarus next?

The US state dept is urging all Americans to leave Belarus immediately.

Elsewhere, the Kyiv Post reports that Belarusian propagandists claim the Belarusian opposition is planning to invade the country from abroad and instigate a coup.

Watch Jake Broe from 20:48.

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[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

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