[Politics] Protests/rioting in lots of places

Jackthelad · Oct 29, 2024

beorhthelm said:
what actual material difference does it make if the attack was some islamic inspired terrorism or the actions of a madman?

Because it’s important to know if we can stop these style attacks and has an ideology helped create it. We have a growing far right online movement we also have an extremely dangerous Islamist problem throughout Europe and UK.

The Clamp · Oct 29, 2024

beorhthelm said:
what actual material difference does it make if the attack was some islamic inspired terrorism or the actions of a madman?

I think understanding motive is helpful in tacking these sort of crimes.

I mean, you’re right in that it makes little odds now in this particular case but it helps with the bigger picture.

Ike and Tina Burner · Oct 29, 2024

AstroSloth said:
Just going to repost my post from the Tommy Robinson thread

"He had a pdf downloaded of training for terrorist attacks that was created by Al Quaeda, that doesn't mean he's part of Al Quaeda.

If he had a copy of the anarchists cookbook to make bombs, would that make him a Marxist? Or if he had an IRA bomb making instructional document would that make him an Irish Nationalist?

It could be that he had the document simply because it contained the information he needed, hence why the stabbing still isn't being treated as a terrorist attack, and the killer is being charged with possession of terrorist material."

There is zero evidence this was an Islamic terrorist attack, or that he had converted to Islam.

"This had nothing to do with Islam, you're just a bigot"
"Okay he may have possessed Islamic terrorist material but that doesn't make him a Muslim terrorist" <<<<<<<We are here
"Okay, this was an Islamic terrorist attack but he wasn't actually a proper Muslim because they don't believe in violence"
"What terrorist attack? I don't know what you're talking about. Something something the threat from the far right"

cunning fergus · Oct 29, 2024

beorhthelm said:
what actual material difference does it make if the attack was some islamic inspired terrorism or the actions of a madman?

Well, just imagine following the random stabbing of 11 people in Southport you posted something on social media about more Islamic terrorism and then you were subsequently charged by your local police with inciting violence etc.

If you pleaded guilty to get a softer sentence you might be smarting having been convicted of 2 years in the chokey for that offence. If however you decided to plead your case before a jury because you thought such a charge was disproportionate then this development absolutely represents a material difference.

The optics of the position are not good are they, and this sadly is another nail in the coffin for the public to trust the institutions that run the country, and that includes old TTFG Keir. Even the timing of this development becoming public feels suss.

They learned absolutely nothing from the Post Office fiasco did they……….

beorhthelm · Oct 29, 2024

cunning fergus said:
Well, just imagine following the random stabbing of 11 people in Southport you posted something on social media about more Islamic terrorism and then you were subsequently charged by your local police with inciting violence etc.

If you pleaded guilty to get a softer sentence you might be smarting having been convicted of 2 years in the chokey for that offence. If however you decided to plead your case before a jury because you thought such a charge was disproportionate then this development absolutely represents a material difference.

The optics of the position are not good are they, and this sadly is another nail in the coffin for the public to trust the institutions that run the country, and that includes old TTFG Keir. Even the timing of this development becoming public feels suss.

They learned absolutely nothing from the Post Office fiasco did they……….

charge of inciting violence might change depending on why you incited violence, if you're half right it's ok to do so? i see that's where this is going, and it's utter bollocks.

Weststander · Oct 29, 2024

It’ll all come out in the wash (court case). Patience.

If the police/cps did take an unusual step in playing things down at the time in terms of not releasing facts they might normally have done, that wouldn’t done any harm.

Rioters wouldn’t rioted less violently. Farage would’ve had a field day agitating further.

cunning fergus · Oct 30, 2024

Weststander said:
It’ll all come out in the wash (court case). Patience.

If the police/cps did take an unusual step in playing things down at the time in terms of not releasing facts they might normally have done, that wouldn’t done any harm.

Rioters wouldn’t rioted less violently. Farage would’ve had a field day agitating further.

I’m sure it has been expressed on this thread, or others, that there is an appearance of different approaches to certain criminal events for certain people/acts when compared to others. The moniker TTK did not fall out of the sky.

In the detail it’s possible this difference can all be justified, however in the mix are Huw Edwards getting sentenced to nothing despite being a nonce, the vilification of a policeman during a trial of a violent gangster, the conviction of people not rioting but for what they posted on social media, the release of thousands of prisoners and the long wait for details of this case, the stabbing of the soldier in Gillingham and the attackers of the police in Manchester Airport.

Trust by the public in its institutions, the Government and the press are at an all time low. I’m afraid this case, given how it has been managed will be for many a cherry on the cake for this perception.

Zeberdi · Oct 30, 2024

cunning fergus said:
Well, just imagine following the random stabbing of 11 people in Southport you posted something on social media about more Islamic terrorism and then you were subsequently charged by your local police with inciting violence etc.

If you pleaded guilty to get a softer sentence you might be smarting having been convicted of 2 years in the chokey for that offence. If however you decided to plead your case before a jury because you thought such a charge was disproportionate then this development absolutely represents a material difference.

The optics of the position are not good are they, and this sadly is another nail in the coffin for the public to trust the institutions that run the country, and that includes old TTFG Keir. Even the timing of this development becoming public feels suss.

They learned absolutely nothing from the Post Office fiasco did they……….

I find these comments muddling too - (it doesn’t take much these days!)

Are you suggesting that the far right were unfairly charged for inciting violence because Southport hasn’t yet been designated a terror attack? If so, that’s ridiculous.

The riots did not take place because people believed the stabbings were a terror offence, they took place because social media stoked up hatred of British muslims and a misplaced hatred of immigrants (the later based on false information) - that is why they have been charged. It is immaterial to their rioting and inciting offences whether Southport is subsequently designated a terror-related incident (ie it was carried out with the intent of pursuing an ideological objective) or was a random attack.

Surely you can’t think that just because Rudakubana’s was subsequently separately charged with producing ricin and possessing a terrorist linked pamphlet that hundreds of rioters are retrospectively justified in terrorising local muslim communities and burning hotels housing innocent asylum seekers after the stabbings?

Not sure what “optics” or “position” you are referring to - there is no cover up here, the police have said they are still investigating the Southport stabbings - as I said above, they can not designate an attack a terrorist one without establishing a terrorist intent.

They are also not going to be releasing any information about the details of their investigation until they have concluded their inquiries - that could affect the integrity of their case when it comes to court (that is usually the case with police investigations). The fact that Rudakubana had terror related material in his home will likely form part of the evidence the police are collating to establish that Southport was a terror offence but on it’s own it is not enough. There will also be matters of national security in a terrorism investigation, especially if there are ongoing MI5 investigations into persons that Rudakubana may have come into contact with, either domestically or abroad, that could be linked with terror organisations - those matters certainly won’t be released to the public for obvious reasons.

Take off the tin hat for a moment and look at this rationally.

There is no ‘cover up here’, you are creating false narratives about all of this to try and make political points and it belies an uninformed pov .

.

BadFish · Oct 30, 2024

cunning fergus said:
I’m sure it has been expressed on this thread, or others, that there is an appearance of different approaches to certain criminal events for certain people/acts when compared to others. The moniker TTK did not fall out of the sky.

In the detail it’s possible this difference can all be justified, however in the mix are Huw Edwards getting sentenced to nothing despite being a nonce, the vilification of a policeman during a trial of a violent gangster, the conviction of people not rioting but for what they posted on social media, the release of thousands of prisoners and the long wait for details of this case, the stabbing of the soldier in Gillingham and the attackers of the police in Manchester Airport.

Trust by the public in its institutions, the Government and the press are at an all time low. I’m afraid this case, given how it has been managed will be for many a cherry on the cake for this perception.

To prove this you will need to provide evidence that the Huw Edwards decision sat outside the usual legal parameters. Then you would need to do the same for all the other examples you cite.

In addition, it is probably a good idea to reveal your legal qualifications in the matters you cite as examples. Possibly even point to someone with those qualifications who can provide the depth required of your examples.

The name TTK may not have fallen out of the sky but I suspect that it did fall out of some right-wing hack's arse only to be lapped up by the perma outraged and hard of thinking.

Totally agree about the lack of trust in the press but I enjoy the irony that you parrot so much of the bilge it contains.

carlzeiss · Oct 30, 2024

Could this mean that the BBC may not actually fact check their news articles after all ?

Southport: Three more men jailed for violent disorder

They admit taking part in a disturbance near Southport mosque after three girls were fatally stabbed.

www.bbc.co.uk

"The violence was started by false online rumours that the suspect in the Southport attack was a Muslim."

beorhthelm · Oct 30, 2024

those making a thing about the perpetrator's religion are really just highlighting the rioting was nothing about the children that died. they don't really care about that, just the ethnicity of the killer.

Springal · Oct 30, 2024

It’s a shame everyone apparently knew this and didn’t bother to tell mi5

Some Telegraph reporter was saying she had been told all along, was surprised reporting it

if she didn’t contact the authorities shame on her

Zeberdi · Oct 30, 2024

carlzeiss said:
Could this mean that the BBC may not actually fact check their news articles after all ?

Southport: Three more men jailed for violent disorder

They admit taking part in a disturbance near Southport mosque after three girls were fatally stabbed.

www.bbc.co.uk

"The violence was started by false online rumours that the suspect in the Southport attack was a Muslim."

Where do you get the idea from that he is a Muslim?

MSM widely reported that he was a ‘quiet and introverted ‘choir boy’‘ living with his parents who were ’heavily’ involved in the local Church.

The BBC are correct in stating that the riots were started by false rumours on social media that Axel Rudabukana was a muslim immigrant.

Can people actually stop posting false information - isn’t X bad enough without NSC adding to the mountains of rumours and mistruths?

hans kraay fan club · Oct 30, 2024

carlzeiss said:
Could this mean that the BBC may not actually fact check their news articles after all ?

Southport: Three more men jailed for violent disorder

They admit taking part in a disturbance near Southport mosque after three girls were fatally stabbed.

www.bbc.co.uk

"The violence was started by false online rumours that the suspect in the Southport attack was a Muslim."

Desperate attempt at point scoring.

The ‘online rumours’ in the immediate aftermath of the horrific attack, falsely named a suspect (with a made up Uber-Muslim name), falsely claimed he was an illegal immigrant, falsely claimed he had arrived by boat in the previous few days, and claimed that he was ‘Muslim’.

Well, all of of it bar the last claim is demonstrably false - created purely to sow disorder and hate. And the last claim still appears to also be unproven / incorrect.

Get back in your gleeful little right wing box.

Thunder Bolt · Oct 30, 2024

Rudakaban has been charged with 3 counts of murder, production of a biological toxin, and a terrorism offence. That’s not the same as a terrorist incident, which may or may not happen before trial.
As this clip from Newsnight explains the pdf found was from the USA investigations into Al Qaeda. Investigations are ongoing as to the motive for the murders. No doubt, there will be a motive, but as yet, none has been considered as evidence. There is a difference.
We have to allow the police, Counter Terrorism, and the CPS to do their job, and that includes politician and the press.

The government ministers were only told of the possibility of new charges in the last few weeks.

Government aware of new Southport charges in past few weeks

Axel Rudakubana, 18, is facing two further charges, including one under the terrorism act.

www.bbc.co.uk

jcdenton08 · Oct 30, 2024

This really fails the stink test. As calm heads have said, let’s wait for the facts, but something felt very off about the reporting of this tragic case from the get go.

carlzeiss · Oct 30, 2024

Zeberdi said:
Where do you get the idea from that he is a Muslim?

MSM widely reported that he was a ‘quiet and introverted ‘choir boy’‘ living with his parents who were ’heavily’ involved in the local Church.

The BBC are correct in stating that the riots were started by false rumours on social media that Axel Rudabukana was a muslim immigrant.

Can people actually stop posting false information - isn’t X bad enough without NSC adding to the mountains of rumours and mistruths?

No mention of the accused being an " introverted choir boy" in the latest BBC article

Government aware of new Southport charges in past few weeks

Axel Rudakubana, 18, is facing two further charges, including one under the terrorism act.

www.bbc.co.uk

Zeberdi · Oct 30, 2024

hans kraay fan club said:
Desperate attempt at point scoring.

The ‘online rumours’ in the immediate aftermath of the horrific attack, falsely named a suspect (with a made up Uber-Muslim name), falsely claimed he was an illegal immigrant, falsely claimed he had arrived by boat in the previous few days, and claimed that he was ‘Muslim’.

Well, all of of it bar the last claim is demonstrably false - created purely to sow disorder and hate. And the last claim still appears to also be unproven / incorrect.

Get back in your gleeful little right wing box.

Again - Where are you getting the idea that Rudakubana is a Muslim?

Just because he had Ricin and a pamphlet that would be ‘useful’ to plan a terrorist attack it doesn’t make him a Muslim.

As I said above, the MSM ( not social media/X!) widely reported the guys background as being a diagnosed autistic boy of 17 years old, shy and sang in the Church choir - he rarely went out and his parents were heavily involved in the local Church. How does that fit with a someone practising a fundamental Islamic faith, let alone from a Muslim family?

That could be the reason the police are taking time to try and establish if there was a terror intention in the stabbing spree. If the lad did not subscribe to Islam, it is hard to prove an attack was to further extremist Islamic ideology.

Boy, 17, accused of murdering three girls in Southport attack is ‘quiet choirboy who was unwilling to leave his house’

The 17-year-old boy who is accused of murdering three girls at a Taylor Swift-themed dance class in Southport was a ‘quiet’ choirboy who was ‘unwilling to leave the house or speak with his family’, a court has heard.

www.lbc.co.uk

Zeberdi · Oct 30, 2024

carlzeiss said:
No mention of the accused being an " introverted choir boy" in the latest BBC article

Government aware of new Southport charges in past few weeks

Axel Rudakubana, 18, is facing two further charges, including one under the terrorism act.

www.bbc.co.uk

You didn’t answer my question - provide a link to a reliable MSM source that the attacker was a Muslim.

Ive posted several links now bout his background including a link by the Beeb saying rumours that he is a Muslim were false

Guinness Boy · Oct 30, 2024

Ike and Tina Burner said:
"This had nothing to do with Islam, you're just a bigot"
"Okay he may have possessed Islamic terrorist material but that doesn't make him a Muslim terrorist" <<<<<<<We are here
"Okay, this was an Islamic terrorist attack but he wasn't actually a proper Muslim because they don't believe in violence"
"What terrorist attack? I don't know what you're talking about. Something something the threat from the far right"

Talking of moving the goalposts, are you and others on this thread now claiming you were right? Because the social media posts that started the rioting claimed the attack was carried out by an asylum seeker fresh off a boat with an Arabic name.

The accused is none of those things. He was born in Cardiff and may (or may not) have "converted".

Perhaps it's best to just let the police do their jobs in case the prosecution case is affected by social media posts, then you can all have a good gloat if and when he's convicted?

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[Politics] Protests/rioting in lots of places

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