[Politics] The Labour Government

pb21 · Oct 28, 2024

Bozza said:
We seem to disagree on what "Labour will not increase taxes on working people" means then.

You need to finish the sentence though.

"Labour will not increase taxes on working people, which is why we will not increase National Insurance, the basic, higher, or additional rates of Income Tax, or VAT."

You might as well just say that Labour have said in their manifesto that:

"Labour will not increase taxes"

Which is true. And then when they do, say they lied.

Bold Seagull · Oct 28, 2024

Bozza said:
If we're talking the same thing, they (Labour) did. I copy-and-pasted the line from the manifesto earlier in this thread:

"Labour will not increase taxes on working people, which is why we will not increase National Insurance, the basic, higher, or additional rates of Income Tax, or VAT."

In fact, that's a sentence in your screen-grab.

I guess it comes down to whether you believe that income tax, NI and VAT represents an exhaustive list of the taxes that working people pay. I don't.

If you categorise VAT as a tax working people pay, I really don't think you can suggest fuel duty isn't. (I have no idea if a fuel duty rise is mooted - I'm just using it as an example).

The manifesto states a pledge and clarifies the taxes that apply to that pledge. It’s actually unambiguous in that regard.

We could argue all day over other taxes that impact working people, or what working people means, but the statement tells you the taxes the manifesto is pledging to apply to that meaning.

Bozza · Oct 28, 2024

pb21 said:
You need to finish the sentence though.

"Labour will not increase taxes on working people, which is why we will not increase National Insurance, the basic, higher, or additional rates of Income Tax, or VAT."

You might as well just say that Labour have said in their manifesto that:

"Labour will not increase taxes"

And then when they do, say they lied.

So you believe that income tax, NI and VAT is the full and complete list of taxes that working people pay?

That's fine.

That's the disagreement then.

pb21 · Oct 28, 2024

Bozza said:
So you believe that income tax, NI and VAT is the full and complete list of taxes that working people pay?

That's fine.

That's the disagreement then.

Obviously I don't believe that.

If they hadn't added in VAT into that sentence there would be no conversation,or at least much less of one. They should have stated that separately.

Arguably/clearly it's worded poorly, but I think it's unreasonable to draw from what they have said that they won't increase taxation on working people (which they haven't said).

Bozza · Oct 28, 2024

Bold Seagull said:
The manifesto states a pledge and clarifies the taxes that apply to that pledge. It’s actually unambiguous in that regard.

We could argue all day over other taxes that impact working people, or what working people means, but the statement tells you the taxes the manifesto is pledging to apply to that meaning.

No - that's utter nonsense, if only for the VAT/fuel duty example.

But you won't change your mind, and I'm hoping that no further taxes paid by this working person are increased on Wednesday.

Bozza · Oct 28, 2024

pb21 said:
Obviously I don't believe that.

If they hadn't added in VAT into that sentence there would be no conversation,or at least much less of one. They should have stated that separately.

Arguably it's worded poorly, but I think it's unreasonable to draw from what they have said that they won't increase taxation on working people.

This goes back to what I said a few hours ago on this thread. More poor communication from this government.

If they meant "we won't be taking any more from your pay packet", and I'm sure they probably did, they should have found some flowery words to say "we won't be taking any more from your pay packet. Oh, and we won't be raising VAT either."

As it is, a raise on fuel duty, insurance premium tax or stamp duty (I'm going to ignore capital gains tax and inheritance tax) gives an "I'm a working person, and I'm paying more tax" tap-in.

Kinky Gerbil · Oct 28, 2024

Bozza said:
"I do know how much this matters, so we're only raising it by 50%..."

seems like a tax (not tax) on working people

If you price people out they will just drive, we are meant to be pushing people towards using public transport over driving.

We've just moved into a new building in the middle of town in Crawley and the company/ council pushed the £2 bus fare as a bonus and a reason not to drive.

£2 extra a day doesn't seem much, but over the course of a month it adds up.

Bozza · Oct 28, 2024

Kinky Gerbil said:
seems like a tax (not tax) on working people

If you price people out they will just drive, we are meant to be pushing people towards using public transport over driving.

We've just moved into a new building in the middle of town in Crawley and the company/ council pushed the £2 bus fare as a bonus and a reason not to drive.

£2 extra a day doesn't seem much, but over the course of a month it adds up.

Presumably, most regular travellers would have some form of season ticket, although some may not be able to afford the outlay and be forced to buy day-to-day, or their travel is sporadic such that a season ticket doesn't make economic sense.

It looks like the scheme was seen as a success in an early DfT evaluation:

"The scheme is perceived as making a positive impact on the cost of living

As previously reported in the first interim report, around 30% of respondents to the wave 2 panel survey said that the £2 fare cap has had a positive impact on their disposable income and income for other expenses. This is supported further by the latest Transport Focus survey, which found that 8 in 10 respondents agreed that the fare cap will help people with the cost of living. More than 4 in 10 thought it might help them save money personally.

In both surveys, the scheme was perceived to have the relatively largest impact on the cost of living for people in younger age groups."

Bold Seagull · Oct 28, 2024

Bozza said:
No - that's utter nonsense, if only for the VAT/fuel duty example.

But you won't change your mind, and I'm hoping that no further taxes paid by this working person are increased on Wednesday.

I’m saying I would read a pledge that says we’re not increasing tax on working people by not touching Income, NI and VAT, as the pledge. If it was meant to be exhaustive, you wouldn’t list 3 taxes and then expect people to guess the others.

I mean what exactly am I changing my mind on? I agree other taxes apply to working people, just that the manifesto is clear in picking out the taxes it is applying.

Braggfan · Oct 28, 2024

Kinky Gerbil said:
seems like a tax (not tax) on working people

If you price people out they will just drive, we are meant to be pushing people towards using public transport over driving.

We've just moved into a new building in the middle of town in Crawley and the company/ council pushed the £2 bus fare as a bonus and a reason not to drive.

£2 extra a day doesn't seem much, but over the course of a month it adds up.

A few years back, a place I was working somewhere in the outskirts of the city, and they could never hire any temps. And those they did manage to get would only stay a week, 2 weeks tops. I always figured the bus fares played a part in that, because if your spending £5 a day on the bus, thats £25 a week, £100 a month. If you temped in town and could walk there you'd save yourself £100 a month.

Kinky Gerbil · Oct 28, 2024

Bozza said:
Presumably, most regular travellers would have some form of season ticket, although some may not be able to afford the outlay and be forced to buy day-to-day, or their travel is sporadic such that a season ticket doesn't make economic sense.

It looks like the scheme was seen as a success in an early DfT evaluation:

"The scheme is perceived as making a positive impact on the cost of living

As previously reported in the first interim report, around 30% of respondents to the wave 2 panel survey said that the £2 fare cap has had a positive impact on their disposable income and income for other expenses. This is supported further by the latest Transport Focus survey, which found that 8 in 10 respondents agreed that the fare cap will help people with the cost of living. More than 4 in 10 thought it might help them save money personally.

In both surveys, the scheme was perceived to have the relatively largest impact on the cost of living for people in younger age groups."

So so

With hybrid WFH there is no real need for them in all jobs.

Using myself at the moment - I'm on nights so I don't need to get to the office for 12 days

So there is no point for me to get a bus pass, so will day by day, I appreciate that's an extreme

We offer free parking, so there is no incentive to get a bus if they put pricing up.

Bozza · Oct 28, 2024

Bold Seagull said:
I’m saying I would read a pledge that says we’re not increasing tax on working people by not touching Income, NI and VAT, as the pledge. If it was meant to be exhaustive, you wouldn’t list 3 taxes and then expect people to guess the others.

I mean what exactly am I changing my mind on? I agree other taxes apply to working people, just that the manifesto is clear in picking out the taxes it is applying.

So, you seem to be saying that a sub-set of personal taxes, one of which has nothing to do with work, is the exhaustive list of taxes that working people pay. I understand now.

Bold Seagull · Oct 28, 2024

Bozza said:
So, you seem to be saying that a sub-set of personal taxes, one of which has nothing to do with work, is the exhaustive list of taxes that working people pay. I understand now.

I doubt you do, but with an ‘open’ mind you probably would.

chip · Oct 28, 2024

If I have got this right, they are going to increase taxation on working people but not the tax on working people's pay. Taxes on other things, fuel, alcohol, gambling, flights, vehicles, council tax, stamp duty, etc. may go up. So direct taxation remains the same, indirect could change.

The Clamp · Oct 28, 2024

We won’t raise taxes for working people.

Raises bus fare cap by 50% from £2 to £3.

I’m trying to be patient but my God, they’re testing me.

Are they deliberately targeting the poorest in the community?

beorhthelm · Oct 28, 2024

chip said:
If I have got this right, they are going to increase taxation on working people but not the tax on working people's pay. Taxes on other things, fuel, alcohol, gambling, flights, vehicles, council tax, stamp duty, etc. may go up. So direct taxation remains the same, indirect could change.

exactly, not quite as snappy as a manifesto pledge.

and everyone knows this, the many taxes that might rise was pointed out in the election, we've now decided to have a massive fit of pedantry.

chip · Oct 28, 2024

beorhthelm said:
not quite as snappy as a manifesto pledge.

You'll all be worse off?

Bozza · Oct 28, 2024

Bold Seagull said:
I doubt you do, but with an ‘open’ mind you probably would.

If my mind was closed, I'd be jumping on the "Raising Employer NI is a tax on working people" bandwagon. I don't see it as that, even though there is a direct impact on me as a one-man-band limited company. (It will present a problem for many SMEs, however, but that is a different subject).

If my mind was closed, I'd blindly vote the same party, election after election, and then defend their every action, in an equally blind fashion.

If Labour had said this:

"We will ensure taxes on working people are kept as low as possible, which is why we will not increase National Insurance, the basic, higher, or additional rates of Income Tax, or VAT."

...I don't think anyone could quibble. But they didn't. And it seems likely that the tax burden on working people is likely to rise on Wednesday.

Titanic · Oct 28, 2024

chip said:
If I have got this right, they are going to increase taxation on working people but not the tax on working people's pay. Taxes on other things, fuel, alcohol, gambling, flights, vehicles, council tax, stamp duty, etc. may go up. So direct taxation remains the same, indirect could change.

and the tax on jobs... which costs employment opportunities and suppresses wages.

The Clamp · Oct 28, 2024

If anyone thinks the government isn’t going to use the working people to plug the gap in the defecit, they’re dreaming.

Historically the working people have always shouldered the cost of corporate and governmental gambles that don’t pay off.

We’re mugs.

Kier Starmer is not one of us.

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