[Politics] The Labour Government

[Bold Seagull]

Yep, they had the working class Tory Wellend that runs Pimlico Plumbers on Radio 4 this morning proudly stating that he'd already moved to Spain and Dubai. "Good" I thought. "That'll give other small plumbing businesses in London a chance to go for the market share they've left behind".

Only, it turns out, from a quick check of their website, they are still available 24/7/365 to fix your loo and shower. So what he meant was "I'll keep my lucrative business but I have no intention of paying my fair share towards the NHS".

A lot of them promise to leave them unfortunately don’t. The Dildo King at West Ham is another one, threatens to leave but never has the good grace to do so.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Yes and no.

Yes: people on the right of the spectrum will claim it regardless.
No: people on the left of the spectrum will deny it regardless.

There's gojng to be a lot of arguing about semantics.

For example, would a rise in fuel duty represent an increase in taxation on working people? I'd suggest it would.

Is the expected rise in employer NI an increase in taxation on working people? I don't think so, no, although the subsequent impact will unquestionably influence both pay and recruiting decisions that companies make.

Would an increase on corporation tax represent an increase in taxation on working people? I'd suggest not, even though as the owner of a one-man-band limited company, it would impact me.

I can see some small business owners disagreeing with me on the latter two points however.

I would agree with that in the main. Yes, working people have to fill up their cars. But some of them smoke or vape, many drink. When I was growing up the standing joke in our household on budget day was "oh good, it's national put up beer, fags and petrol day". Whoever the Chancellor was.

Fuel duty has often gone up in the past and arguably it should even more in a world where environmental change is causing floods, hurricanes and God knows what else. It might break a semantic of a promise but I suspect any party with an environmental policy would do the same.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Yes and no.

Yes: people on the right of the spectrum will claim it regardless.
No: people on the left of the spectrum will deny it regardless.

There's gojng to be a lot of arguing about semantics.

For example, would a rise in fuel duty represent an increase in taxation on working people? I'd suggest it would.

Is the expected rise in employer NI an increase in taxation on working people? I don't think so, no, although the subsequent impact will unquestionably influence both pay and recruiting decisions that companies make.

Would an increase on corporation tax represent an increase in taxation on working people? I'd suggest not, even though as the owner of a one-man-band limited company, it would impact me.

I can see some small business owners disagreeing with me on the latter two points however.

I don't think it's quite that straightforward as left and right.

I think it also needs to account for a significant number of 'I'm being taxed more so it's bad' v 'I'm not being taxed more so it's good' regardless of where the money is going. (And I agree the semantics will go on forever regardless)

 

[Is it PotG?]

Yep, they had the working class Tory Wellend that runs Pimlico Plumbers on Radio 4 this morning proudly stating that he'd already moved to Spain and Dubai. "Good" I thought. "That'll give other small plumbing businesses in London a chance to go for the market share they've left behind".

Only, it turns out, from a quick check of their website, they are still available 24/7/365 to fix your loo and shower. So what he meant was "I'll keep my lucrative business but I have no intention of paying my fair share towards the NHS".

Sorry, I don't see the connection (aside from the plumbing gag).

 

[Guinness Boy]

Sorry, I don't see the connection (aside from the plumbing gag).

You don't see the connection between you posting that millionaires are leaving and me giving an example of a millionaire that's leaving (but not his famous business)?

 

[Is it PotG?]

You don't see the connection between you posting that millionaires are leaving and me giving an example of a millionaire that's leaving (but not his famous business)?

Indeed, why this specific business?

 

[abc]

I’d suggest if a business can only afford to pay minimum wage and can’t pass on a small increase it’s probably not a great business.

Absolutely, because running a small business is so easy

 

[pb21]

we know the Labour Party promised no increased taxation on working people and, on Wednesday, we will be able to see if they are going to keep to that promise.

I dont think they did actually say that (no increased taxation on working people). the below is from the manifesto.

https://manifesto.deryn.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Labour-Party-manifesto-2024.pdf

I always understood the promise was no increase in NI, IT or VAT. Admittedly they didn’t specify employees/employees NI but I took it to be the worker.

 

[LamieRobertson]

This is one of the calmest , most reasoned political debates on NSC we have had for a while.

I think your are being a tad harsh.

A lot of people simply aren’t convinced by Labour’s efforts so far.

I for one am willing to see give they do.

Wednesday is their first real test .

I am not expecting many large waves to be made in any area by Labour on this budget.

I don’t think many people have much to worry about .

Next year’s will be the big one.

Totally agree

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

I dont think they did actually say that (no increased taxation on working people). the below is from the manifesto.

View attachment 191395

https://manifesto.deryn.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Labour-Party-manifesto-2024.pdf

I always understood the promise was no increase in NI, IT or VAT. Admittedly they didn’t specify employees/employees NI but I took it to be the worker.

So someone running a small business, who will have to pay more employer NI, are they not classed as a worker?

 

[Bozza]

I dont think they did actually say that (no increased taxation on working people). the below is from the manifesto.

https://manifesto.deryn.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Labour-Party-manifesto-2024.pdf

I always understood the promise was no increase in NI, IT or VAT. Admittedly they didn’t specify employees/employees NI but I took it to be the worker.

If we're talking the same thing, they (Labour) did. I copy-and-pasted the line from the manifesto earlier in this thread:

"Labour will not increase taxes on working people, which is why we will not increase National Insurance, the basic, higher, or additional rates of Income Tax, or VAT."

In fact, that's a sentence in your screen-grab.

I guess it comes down to whether you believe that income tax, NI and VAT represents an exhaustive list of the taxes that working people pay. I don't.

If you categorise VAT as a tax working people pay, I really don't think you can suggest fuel duty isn't. (I have no idea if a fuel duty rise is mooted - I'm just using it as an example).

 

[Mo Gosfield]

People churn it out just shows how little they understand what business are up against. Still maybe they’ve never tried to create or run a business of their own, maybe an employee.

its not just the wages, minimum pay, Ni’s that have squeezed and squeezed.
I’ll give a few examples of things that have pushed companies such as mine were affected during and just after covid. Set against a backdrop of our trying to keep all our employees jobs open, no redundancies.

Covid lockdown saw turnover drop from circa 200k per month to less than 10k
Not being in entertainment or pub trade weren’t entitled to any grants
A landlord who refused point blank to give any break whatsoever in the rent, (and in fact went on to increase the rent from 50k to 80k when the lease was renewed in the following 18 months)
No break in paying rates

The period between shutdowns and return to work saw around 20% of leisure based customer base closed down or dramatically reduced hours.

There was a huge and prolonged increase on cost of goods. Chemicals, sanitisers, paper products increasing order by order, not month by month. One example of gloves saw costs go from pre covid £9.50 per thousand to over £80 per thousand. Another Paper disposables increase by over 65% in less than 9 months.

We needed to renew vans that had been committed to but the costs went up by just over 25%

Gas and Elect costs increased by over 13k per year

The customers understandably kicked back against all increases. Some who refused any increase whatsoever we had no choice other than to stop supplying.

When your GP margin is less than 27.5% and you’ve absorbed an overall increases of 7.5%, maybe more, there isn’t the capability to keep sucking up more and more cost.

So as for stupid comments of not being great businesses I’d counter that they are in fact quite the opposit. There’s hundreds like my old company. Companies who employ thousands upon thousands of staff, companies who try and try to keep their workers jobs open, companies who pay taxes, who help create jobs in outside companies such as their suppliers, their insurers, garages, etc etc. Comapnies who despite it all hang on in there working on wafer wafer thin margins.

Still let’s tax the F out of them and when they start to warn that the straw is about to break and probably jeopardise people’s livelihoods let’s start making snide and ignorant ‘suggestions’ that ‘they aren’t probably great businesses’

Priceless.

EDIT: What would the poster suggest then? close them down? lay off your staff? See those around 50 year old plus struggle to get new employment? Or how about them stuck at home, struggling with mental health issues and claiming benefits from the state? Yet another situation not thought about ..

Know how you feel.
The cash cow that can keep being milked for more and more. Never mind about wealth creation, recruitment and re-investment, our economy can grow without any of that piffle. Working people.....we are all bloody working people.

 

[beorhthelm]

So someone running a small business, who will have to pay more employer NI, are they not classed as a worker?

no, the owner is the capitalist living off the work of others.

they could also be employed by the business, and for that work they'll not see increase in income tax or NI. easy to be in both catogories.

 

[Bozza]

"I do know how much this matters, so we're only raising it by 50%..."

 

[pb21]

If we're talking the same thing, they (Labour) did. I copy-and-pasted the line from the manifesto earlier in this thread:

"Labour will not increase taxes on working people, which is why we will not increase National Insurance, the basic, higher, or additional rates of Income Tax, or VAT."

In fact, that's a sentence in your screen-grab.

I guess it comes down to whether you believe that income tax, NI and VAT represents an exhaustive list of the taxes that working people pay. I don't.

If you categorise VAT as a tax working people pay, I really don't think you can suggest fuel duty isn't. (I have no idea if a fuel duty rise is mooted - I'm just using it as an example).

Yeah, but you missed the first bit, "we will ensure taxes on working people are kept as low as possible".

They then qualify that further, but agree it’s clear as mud (VAT, fuel duty etc.).

However, and crucially, they absolutely didn’t say that they wouldn’t increase taxation on working people, which is obviously a different kettle of fish.

 

[chip]

I dont think they did actually say that (no increased taxation on working people). the below is from the manifesto.

View attachment 191395

https://manifesto.deryn.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Labour-Party-manifesto-2024.pdf

I always understood the promise was no increase in NI, IT or VAT. Admittedly they didn’t specify employees/employees NI but I took it to be the worker.

With the clarification that I will see no change in my payslip, this must mean that there will be no changes to tax relief on pension contributions or salary sacrifice rules so no rush to get a new bicycle. It follows that the £60K annual limit will not be reduced nor the LTA reintroduced. They could have avoided a lot of speculation, but at least we get a couple more days to speculate about IHT and CGT.

 

[Bozza]

However, and crucially, they absolutely didn’t say that they wouldn’t increase taxation on working people, which is obviously a different kettle of fish.

We seem to disagree on what "Labour will not increase taxes on working people" means then.

 

[pb21]

So someone running a small business, who will have to pay more employer NI, are they not classed as a worker?

In the sense of NI they would be paying more tax as an employer.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

"I do know how much this matters, so we're only raising it by 50%..."

Just as well no working people get the bus to work then.

 

[chip]

"I do know how much this matters, so we're only raising it by 50%..."

I'm not sure they were a BSL gestures in that video