[Albion] Why was Fab sent off?

[kevo]

They should take lots of footage from our game with arsenal. Stepping a yard on the pitch is no where near as bad as standing g on the touchline as an opponent dribbles down the line. I am convinced Mitoma was going to go down the line until he cut in to avoid the bloke blocking his path and was tackled.

And the thing is Arteta does it ALL the time without sanction. It's a shame Mitoma didn't deliberately run into him. Woulda been interesting to see how the ref reacted (booking for Mitoma I suspect...).

 

[Taybha]

Why was Fab sent off ?

He doesn't know what he's doing.

P 7 W 4 D 3 L 0.

 

[South Stand Bonfire]

They have to live up to the supporter definition of decent in that case, which is "pefect/near perfect".

If you read old fanzines and media, you'll see endless moaning about every f***ing ref that has ever walked this planet. Always been the case. What does that indicate? That every person who has ever refereed "isn't decent", or that people are idiots with unreal expectations?

I don’t agree. It is the inconsistencies that you see by a) the same referee and b) the inconsistencies between different referees that is very frustrating. TV pundits don’t help matters saying things like “he’s entitled to go down” or it was a “clever foul” (thinking of you especially Mr Kane) and the fact refs aren’t allowed to explain their decisions in public after a game that also causes frustration. I think there was one instance recently when a ref acknowledged after the game that he got a decision wrong and my view was he should be commended as he had the balls to say so.

 

[Han Solo]

I don’t agree. It is the inconsistencies that you see by a) the same referee and b) the inconsistencies between different referees that is very frustrating. TV pundits don’t help matters saying things like “he’s entitled to go down” or it was a “clever foul” (thinking of you especially Mr Kane) and the fact refs aren’t allowed to explain their decisions in public after a game that also causes frustration. I think there was one instance recently when a ref acknowledged after the game that he got a decision wrong and my view was he should be commended as he had the balls to say so.

The reason why the refs are inconsistent is usually because the situations are inconsistent. The circumstances, the contexts, the actions, the consequences; virtually every situation is unique.

 

[South Stand Bonfire]

The reason why the refs are inconsistent is usually because the situations are inconsistent. The circumstances, the contexts, the actions, the consequences; virtually every situation is unique.

can I post your response on the Bellcheeses thread please?

 

[Han Solo]

can I post your response on the Bellcheeses thread please?

People demand refs to be consistent but they don't really demand it from anyone else. No one else is expected to get it right all the time.
No one else is expected to behave the exact same way in similar-but-different situations every single time. Except the ref.

Maybe its not humanly possible, or why do you think peope have always ALWAYS been moaning about refs? Do you think they are people of a lower standing species than yourself or what is your theory? Are you consistent in how you live your life and how you behave? You treat all people the same way every day, you always make the same decisions? You never make a mistake at work?

The problem is the human brain. Not the refs.

 

[South Stand Bonfire]

People demand refs to be consistent but they don't really demand it from anyone else. No one else is expected to get it right all the time.
No one else is expected to behave the exact same way in similar-but-different situations every single time. Except the ref.

Maybe its not humanly possible, or why do you think peope have always ALWAYS been moaning about refs? Do you think they are people of a lower standing species than yourself or what is your theory? Are you consistent in how you live your life and how you behave? You treat all people the same way every day, you always make the same decisions? You never make a mistake at work?

The problem is the human brain. Not the refs.

One of the differences is that in my work when I make a mistake or have misinterpreted information given to me, I can explain why I got it wrong. I think PGMOL not allowing referees to explain their decisions be they right or wrong does not help them and fans inevitably see them being unaccountable. I don’t expect refs to be perfect but Spurs away 2 years ago was a classic example of inconsistent behaviour. And yes, I am expected to be consistent at work but that does not mean I’ll get it right first time and I don’t expect refs to be perfect, just more consistent. I’m not sure why you think I’m demonising refs or think they are “lower species” just from my opinions!

 

[Han Solo]

One of the differences is that in my work when I make a mistake or have misinterpreted information given to me, I can explain why I got it wrong. I think PGMOL not allowing referees to explain their decisions be they right or wrong does not help them and fans inevitably see them being unaccountable. I don’t expect refs to be perfect but Spurs away 2 years ago was a classic example of inconsistent behaviour. And yes, I am expected to be consistent at work but that does not mean I’ll get it right first time and I don’t expect refs to be perfect, just more consistent. I’m not sure why you think I’m demonising refs or think they are “lower species” just from my opinions!

And what is the solution to achieving this increase in consistency?

Right now clubs that usually solve problems through spending £200m has basically called for Webb to have a meeting with his refs where he's supposed to say "be better". Or what is the magic solution to this? Sure, clubs, managers and supporters could cut the abuse to make the job less undesireable, but that is never going to happen, so we can't expect there's an ocean for world class referees just hanging around waiting for Mike Dean to f*** off from where he came from.

They are playing against 22 players every week because modern professional football is shit, with everyone instructed to try and ruin the game by various "dark arts" and "game management".
Solve that problem when the kids get their education as humans and players and the "referee problem" is also magically solved. The clubs, managers and players need to improve their behaviour on the pitch. That is the only solution.

 

[zefarelly]

The ref was U10's standard yesterday.

If he had any ability or quality he'd have set the scene within 10 minutes of the start.

He didn't get a grip.

People demand refs to be consistent but they don't really demand it from anyone else. No one else is expected to get it right all the time.
No one else is expected to behave the exact same way in similar-but-different situations every single time. Except the ref.

Maybe its not humanly possible, or why do you think peope have always ALWAYS been moaning about refs? Do you think they are people of a lower standing species than yourself or what is your theory? Are you consistent in how you live your life and how you behave? You treat all people the same way every day, you always make the same decisions? You never make a mistake at work?

The problem is the human brain. Not the refs.

I disagree . . . We're expected to get it right first time where I work . . . . We don't always, but we're far more consistent than referees of late.

the game has got faster, more 'professional' or in real terms 'more cheaty' and the refs haven't kept up

add to that the sheer incompetence and inconsistency of VAR and the waste of oxygen that Linesmen have become . . . .the officiating off football in the PL is farcically bad When compared to the rate of 'progress' from players.

 

[Han Solo]

The ref was U10's standard yesterday.

If he had any ability or quality he'd have set the scene within 10 minutes of the start.

He didn't get a grip.

I disagree . . . We're expected to get it right first time where I work . . . . We don't always, but we're far more consistent than referees of late.

the game has got faster, more 'professional' or in real terms 'more cheaty' and the refs haven't kept up

add to that the sheer incompetence and inconsistency of VAR and the waste of oxygen that Linesmen have become . . . .the officiating off football in the PL is farcically bad When compared to the rate of 'progress' from players.

Ok, if we assume you are right, then how should it be solved?

 

[zefarelly]

Ok, if we assume you are right, then how should it be solved?

Well.

transaprency would be a good start

followed by respect. . .that will be harder, may require a massive ctrl alt delete and even a few mathces abandoned at 7 players each

and divert some of the funds wasted on players to ensure the officials are better at rules than they are at breaking them.

rugby is a good reference point.

 

[Seagull58]

Any Prem manager who walks onto the pitch will get a red card. The dictate from the PGMOL suits'. Shame it's only happened to Fabian. As it was their player sent off, naively can't think of a reason why he should use foul language to the ref ? Talking of whom, I hope his assessor noted how crap he was !
Plus the ball was dead at the time, he was talking to Dunk.

I think he was talking to Dunk after he got the red.

 

[Seagull58]

Gibbs-White was waving his finger directly under Taylor's nose with his face about 12 inches away, eyeballs out, and shouting stuff that Taylor and several others must have heard, so his hearing shouldn't take long either

 

[Zeberdi]

Well.

transaprency would be a good start

followed by respect. . .that will be harder, may require a massive ctrl alt delete and even a few mathces abandoned at 7 players each

and divert some of the funds wasted on players to ensure the officials are better at rules than they are at breaking them.

rugby is a good reference point.

I agree but I don’t think it will be enough and there’s conversely a danger of sanitising the game into an emotionless and suffocating experience if ‘discipline’ is carried too far. Some Referees need to toughen up a bit too with better assertiveness training so they are not so intimidated and relying purely on handing out cards to regain control of a conflict situation.

I think the risk of ‘7 player out=abandonment’ could be mitigated by introducing the blue card system for two yellows and time out on the bench instead.

Maybe players could also be sent off for 3 minutes to “cool down” if they are becoming too WU and frustrated (eg Baleba probably could have done with a few minutes to cool down on Sunday) - that would be better for managers that would otherwise have to sub yellow carded players out for fear of a second.

I have never liked the 2 yellow card =red card rule. It is too draconian for what might be a soft offence and creates an enormous amount of stress for everyone involved.

Playing with 10 men for 3-5 minutes is surely better than for potentially most of the match. A blue card could also be a warning card too that behaviour is close to being yellow carded.

 

[Seagull58]

I agree but I don’t think it will be enough and there’s conversely a danger of sanitising the game into an emotionless and suffocating experience if ‘discipline’ is carried too far. Some Referees need to toughen up a bit too with better assertiveness training so they are not so intimidated and relying purely on handing out cards to regain control of a conflict situation.

I think the risk of ‘7 player out=abandonment’ could be mitigated by introducing the blue card system for two yellows and time out on the bench instead.

Maybe players could also be sent off for 3 minutes to “cool down” if they are becoming too WU and frustrated (eg Baleba probably could have done with a few minutes to cool down on Sunday) - that would be better for managers that would otherwise have to sub yellow carded players out for fear of a second.

I have never liked the 2 yellow card =red card rule. It is too draconian for what might be a soft offence and creates an enormous amount of stress for everyone involved.

Playing with 10 men for 3-5 minutes is surely better than for potentially most of the match. A blue card could also be a warning card too that behaviour is close to being yellow carded.

I can't agree that it's an emotionless and suffocating experience if players don't argue with the officials, don't surround the officials, don't fake injuries, don't kick the ball away, don't dive for penalties snd free kicks, don't commit "professional" fouls, don't time waste and don't go through opposing players to get the ball.
If a player commits any of these offences twice in a game they should be sent off. Introducing an intermediate blue card is an invitation to carry on breaking the rules and to waste as much time as possible while the player is in the sin bin.

 

[Zeberdi]

I can't agree that it's an emotionless and suffocating experience if players don't argue with the officials, don't surround the officials, don't fake injuries, don't kick the ball away, don't dive for penalties snd free kicks, don't commit "professional" fouls, don't time waste and don't go through opposing players to get the ball.
If a player commits any of these offences twice in a game they should be sent off. Introducing an intermediate blue card is an invitation to carry on breaking the rules and to waste as much time as possible while the player is in the sin bin.

Well nor do I - but that wasn’t what I said

I said there is a danger of football becoming that IF discipline is taken TOO far - clearly we are not near that yet otherwise we’d not be having the conversation.

You won’t get all that you have listed out of the game with yellow and red cards - and if you tried, you wouldn’t even get through 45 mins before the game had to be abandoned.

The blue card is controversial admittedly - in the least because it would further complicate a game that is already overly cluttered with complicated disciplinary rules but something needs to be done about the growing lack of discipline and lack of respect for match officials (including in response to the inconsistency and lack of assertiveness with which they officiate at times).

Prem bosses lead backlash over blue card trial

Premier League bosses including Jurgen Klopp, Mauricio Pochettino and Ange Postecoglou came out against the IFAB plan to introduce a blue card on Friday.

www.espn.co.uk

 

[South Stand Bonfire]

Ok, if we assume you are right, then how should it be solved?

A way forward imo would be for the four officials to act more as a team. The ref still makes the decisions but let the assistant refs and 4th official, as he did on Sunday, be more proactive when they see incidents. Also for the referee team to explain key decisions after a game . Eg I couldn’t see the incident or he/she considered it not to be xyz etc.

 

[South Stand Bonfire]

Gibbs-White was waving his finger directly under Taylor's nose with his face about 12 inches away, eyeballs out, and shouting stuff that Taylor and several others must have heard, so his hearing shouldn't take long either

At the time I thought GW had been shown a straight red after his second booking for his ranting then - wasn’t Dunk shown a second yellow at Forest away last year and then a straight red for his swearing at the ref?

 

[Shuggie]

The consistency fallacy

“We just want consistency” is like a 6 year old whining “it’s not fair”, selectively applied to construct a spawny argument that your team was hard done by, for example

Ricegate
no problem, let’s agree Pedro should have been booked … now what?

TrickyTreeGate
option (1): penalty was stonewall; Welbeck goal shouldn’t have been a free-kick in the first place; the ref made a great call over MGW getting ball first and should never have listened to 4th official.

option (2): VAR should have overturned penalty; free kick was clearly correct; ref followed official policy and listened to 4th official who is part of the on-pitch team with a clear responsibility to advise ref if he misses something. Kudos to ref for having the balls to change his decision.

Almost without exception this argument comes up when comparing dissimilar events.

Just ignore anyone who uses this wheedling phrase; it’s contrived to deflect attention from player/manager inadequacies.

Bloody Ferguson

 

[Seagull58]

Well nor do I - but that wasn’t what I said

I said there is a danger of football becoming that IF discipline is taken TOO far - clearly we are not near that yet otherwise we’d not be having the conversation.

You won’t get all that you have listed out of the game with yellow and red cards - and if you tried, you wouldn’t even get through 45 mins before the game had to be abandoned.

The blue card is controversial admittedly - in the least because it would further complicate a game that is already overly cluttered with complicated disciplinary rules but something needs to be done about the growing lack of discipline and lack of respect for match officials (including in response to the inconsistency and lack of assertiveness with which they officiate at times).

Prem bosses lead backlash over blue card trial

Premier League bosses including Jurgen Klopp, Mauricio Pochettino and Ange Postecoglou came out against the IFAB plan to introduce a blue card on Friday.

www.espn.co.uk

This idea of a "soft" second yellow is an unnecessary complication that will not improve the game. The referee already has the option to NOT book a player for a transgression. He currently has to decide if it was an offense or not and then is it worthy of a red, a yellow or no card. Giving him a fourth option of not bad enough for red or yellow but too bad for no card is not going to improve the game at all.