welcome home binyam mohammed

[User removed 4]

answer to what exactly ? Dodge what issue ?

btw, still awaiting the link.....

what link? his link to pakistan ? we both know there isnt one, if he had so much as eaten at a pakistani restaurant in london we would have been told.

 

[User removed 4]

Pot kettle etc

oohh ! you're so cutting

 

[simmo]

oh, my apologies, just replace Iraqi, with Afgan then.

Ok so Al Queda commit 9/11 on Sept 2001 and the US invades Afghanistan (where Al Quedas hq is) in Jan 2002 and it is the US declaring war first..........right.

No doubt we will get some drivel about an oil pipeline or Israel in the next response.

 

[simmo]

oh, and for your information, the relevance is declaring war and blowing up innocent people....in case you missed it.

By the way innocent people die in all wars on all sides. It has always happened in history and always will. I have no idea why you think it should be any different for the US (or Britain).

 

[Simster]

oohh ! you're so cutting

This thread is LITTERED with examples of you failing to provide evidence for anything while dodging any difficult questions, so it's a bit rich of you to ask anything of anybody else IMO.

 

[User removed 4]

This thread is LITTERED with examples of you failing to provide evidence for anything while dodging any difficult questions, so it's a bit rich of you to ask anything of anybody else IMO.

there is either no hard evidence or they are trying to protect a source etc , I have never claimed otherwise and i defy you to show on this thread where i have said otherwise, tell me in your heart of hearts do you belive he was over there for entirely innocent purposes ?

 

[Simster]

there is either no hard evidence or they are trying to protect a source etc , I have never claimed otherwise and i defy you to show on this thread where i have said otherwise, tell me in your heart of hearts do you belive he was over there for entirely innocent purposes ?

In my heart of hearts, no I don't. My gut feeling is that he might well have had terrorist sympathies, but I'd rather we had simply banished him from the country OR he'd just been followed by the spooks all over the place for years. Instead we have sold our values down the river. Human rights and "innocent until proven guilty" both clearly mean f*** all to this government as they do to you.

In addition, I'm not sure torture actually works because people will say anything under duress, plus you can't provide one scrap of evidence that this bloke is/was a terrorist or that torturing him was in any way beneficial, yet you tell us you'd attach the electrodes yourself if it saved British lives. And I repeat, where is the evidence that it saved British lives.

At the very least, even if you think torture is acceptable, what I really can't stomach is that the US (and UK by implication) simply contracted out everything that contravenes the Geneva convention to various tin pot countries instead of having the bollocks to do it in their own name. "Land of the free and hopme of the brave" my f***ing arse. Wrong on both counts.

One more thing - having been treated like this, is he more or LESS likely to be a terrorist NOW?

 

[simmo]

And I repeat, where is the evidence that it saved British lives.

QUOTE]

The evidence is when plots are foiled. At least two have been foiled by the police I can think off one of some people in Crawley, a trial is going on right at this very moment of a foiled plot.........8 men are accused of trying to bomb planes with liquids within soft drink cans.

The security services may have got wind of this/evidence of this by the use of torture of some other members of Al Queda/terrorist organisations (in fact I would be surprised if it hasn't)........if that evidence saved 8 planes being destroyed possibly say saving 1500 peoples lives.....is it worth it?

 

[Simster]

We're going round and round in circles. I'm not convinced torture will have been responsible for those plots being foiled because people will say anything under duress. I'd think it was more likely that intelligence through a spy network found out these details. But lets face it, who knows? Not me, not you.

But if the state thinks torture is the way to go about it, lets do it on our soil, in our name. Not hide behind two bob puppet controlled republics like Morocco. Let the people of the US & UK decide for themselves.

 

[Lokki 7]

By the way innocent people die in all wars on all sides. It has always happened in history and always will. I have no idea why you think it should be any different for the US (or Britain).

Of course people die in wars, but you are assuming that the US/UK wars are just. There are plenty of people who disagree therefore how do you class the casualties of an unjust war? There are also many who believe a holy war is just. One man's terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.

 

[public school boy]

I think the phrase coined by Prince Harry springs to mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[simmo]

We're going round and round in circles. I'm not convinced torture will have been responsible for those plots being foiled because people will say anything under duress. I'd think it was more likely that intelligence through a spy network found out these details. But lets face it, who knows? Not me, not you.

But if the state thinks torture is the way to go about it, lets do it on our soil, in our name. Not hide behind two bob puppet controlled republics like Morocco. Let the people of the US & UK decide for themselves.

What and without torture these people would just give up the information would they.

We would sit them down give them a cup of tea and they would just reveal all right? Do me a favour.

Ok do you agree with this or not.

If torture by Britain (not on Mohammed but of someone else) led to the foiling of the plot that is in the courts NOW where 8 men tried to blow up 8 planes out of the sky possibly, which would have caused thousands of death (maybe yours if you just unlucky enough to have been on that plane) is it worth it.

 

[Lokki 7]

What and without torture these people would just give up the information would they.

We would sit them down give them a cup of tea and they would just reveal all right? Do me a favour.

Ok do you agree with this or not.

If torture by Britain (not on Mohammed but of someone else) led to the foiling of the plot that is in the courts NOW where 8 men tried to blow up 8 planes out of the sky possibly, which would have caused thousands of death (maybe yours if you just unlucky enough to have been on that plane) is it worth it.

You have a very blinkered view of what this might entail. I suggest you visit a few countries that have at times during the 20th century endured state sponsored torture. You won't find many Argentinians or Chileans that think it's ok to sanction torture under any circumstances.

 

[bobbybighead]

He just happened to be on holiday in Afganistan maybee he was talent spoting for the Albion, they heard that the tailiban had some good defensive positions over there. Its just a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time with an AK47 happens all the time in West Street on a saturday night he should think himself lucky he got a free holiday to somewhere hot bet he has a cracking tan. As for the sore b*****ks, its normally peoples bums that get sore must have been the water at his holiday camp bit like butlins ive heard

 

[Simster]

If torture by Britain (not on Mohammed but of someone else) led to the foiling of the plot that is in the courts NOW where 8 men tried to blow up 8 planes out of the sky possibly, which would have caused thousands of death (maybe yours if you just unlucky enough to have been on that plane) is it worth it.

As I say, it's a circular argument. On the face of it, the torture of one man is worth the prevention of 1500 lives lost, yes. I can indeed see what you're saying. But I have three issues with this:

Firstly, *how* do you know that the torture of some bloke prevented this plot? You. Never. Ever. Know. The people who undertake the torturing are NOT accountable to the public and they are hardly likely to say "well we tortured this bloke and it didn't really work" under *any* circumstances.

Secondly, when you mistreat people like this, it only breeds more extremism. Haven't we learnt anything since the bloody Sunday whitewash when 12 unarmed civilians were shot dead? Forget the rights and wrongs of it all, the simple fact is that all of a sudden, thousands of Catholics in N.I. streamed into the arms of the IRA.

And finally, what about if your "plot" was not to blow up 8 planes, but instead was to leave a car bomb outside the Israeli embassy in London which might have killed 2 or 3 British civilians. And lets also summise that the torturers went through 7 or 8 people in order to find out about it. Is it worth it then?

 

[simmo]

Of course people die in wars, but you are assuming that the US/UK wars are just. There are plenty of people who disagree therefore how do you class the casualties of an unjust war? There are also many who believe a holy war is just. One man's terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.

Where have I said that all US/UK wars are just?

The original (irrelevant) quote was about the US killing Iraqi civilians. My reply was that in all wars innocents die on all sides. It has happened ad infinitem and always will because the sad fact about war itself is that people die.

 

[bobbybighead]

Last few quotes

Does anyone remember history today from Newman and:yahoo: Badell

 

[simmo]

You have a very blinkered view of what this might entail. I suggest you visit a few countries that have at times during the 20th century endured state sponsored torture. You won't find many Argentinians or Chileans that think it's ok to sanction torture under any circumstances.

And you, sir, have a very naive view of the people that this country is at WAR with.

 

[Lokki 7]

And you, sir, have a very naive view of the people that this country is at WAR with.

Not really. We are at war with them to protect our freedoms and way of life. If we sacrifice those very things in the fight then we have already lost.

 

[simmo]

You have a very blinkered view of what this might entail. I suggest you visit a few countries that have at times during the 20th century endured state sponsored torture. You won't find many Argentinians or Chileans that think it's ok to sanction torture under any circumstances.

What Britain is like Chile or Argentina, yeah right me and my friends are regularly picked up of the street and tortured, it's damn near an every day occurance at the moment. I mean it is just happening to me all the time. Holy moly.