Those Two lads shot dead in Florida......

[daveinprague]

lol

 

[Husty]

No underlying hostility there then ? In fact what a naive simplistic post.

Naive and simplistic bushy, how very unlike you... And no there is no underlying hostility so stop trying to create it

 

[sydney]

:highjack:...............................once they join the army are they given a choice , enlighten me ,i really don't know. Are we talking about the hierarchy here or the individual..........two blokes poncing around a u.s ghetto at silly o'clock in the morning getting weighed in and a soldier being killed by an i.e.d are in Afghanistan completely different , i would definitely have more sympathy for the latter.

 

[daveinprague]

No, they dont get a choice....thats the point.....and they know this on joining.


If the roles were reversed, and an Afghan military presence was in your area. A muslim military presence, would you have sympathy for
him being blown to the next kingdom by, as you may see it, heroic patriotic British freedom fighters?

 

[sydney]

not going to continue the argy bargy....i just think they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and should probably have know a lot better ...wonder if they'll bother with toxins report.

 

[User removed 4]

If the roles were reversed, and an Afghan military presence was in your area. A muslim military presence, would you have sympathy for
him being blown to the next kingdom by, as you may see it, heroic patriotic British freedom fighters?

Were not talking about the taliban though are we? were talking about treacherous british people , namely you with that statement.

 

[daveinprague]

Dont get me wrong, think the two blokes in the US have been at best naive, at worst, stupid, but........ they dont deserve to die.
Soldiers are there for specific reasons. To kill, and to be killed if necessary. Its the way of war, and soldiers know that.

and im now treacherous for believing that British lives are being wasted in an American war? Against people who have NEVER troubled
Britain.

Fair enough, im unlikely to change my opinion. If you want to promote more British deaths in this unwinnable American war, keep bleating the bs.
If you get yourself killed in Afghanistan, you will be a hero....for about a week, then forgotten, by all except your devastated family left wondering why youre dead. Im sure the pain will be reduced knowing you died bravely for the USA.

 

[JonathanLivingstonSeagull]

and what nobody seems to mention when commenting on service personnel, is that they are SERVING their country, the concept does exist you know

yes the concept exists

'patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel' - Dr Samuel Johnson
'patriotism is the virtue of the vicious' - Oscar Wilde
'patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy' - George Bernard Shaw

Were not talking about the taliban though are we? were talking about treacherous british people , namely you with that statement.

treacherous? i think your attitude is! note:

'patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons' - Bertram Russell

As for labelling people naive and simplistic, well you lunge in with two feet on that score frequently attacking the person and not their argument. This is called 'ad hominem' and is a cardinal fallacy of debate.

Personally I'm wading into this binfest because I find it a bit much that our tabloids and other vessels of ignorance scream and demand (disingenuously I might add) such deference to the 'heroes' of British imperialist interests. A charity called 'help for heroes'? Come on! These people aren't our grandfathers signing up to thwart the march of Nazism across the free world. British FREEDOM is protected by nuclear warheads. British imperialist interests are pursued by the forces. To quote some of the less illustrious posters on here - 'end of'.

I sense that those who get particularly upset by this point of view are those emotionally invested in the armed forces. Those with children, friends or other relatives who choose to join up, or those that served themselves and are blinded by their fraudulent 'patriotism'. I think this (understandably) disengages their critical faculties, at least those who possess them to begin with.

As for the lads - yep it looks like they might have disengaged their critical faculties themselves. Perhaps someone in the touristy city centre sold them some crack, or suchlike, and it proved too, err, 'moreish' to resist going somewhere that anyone in their right mind would avoid like the plague, to score again? Either way it is a tragedy, though then again I don't disagree with the poster who says that it seems like they too knew what they were getting into (to a greater or lesser extent...) Hadn't they ever seen the wire?!

- JLS, loving a binfest since 1997

 

[User removed 4]

yes the concept exists

'patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel' - Dr Samuel Johnson
'patriotism is the virtue of the vicious' - Oscar Wilde
'patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy' - George Bernard Shaw



treacherous? i think your attitude is! note:

'patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons' - Bertram Russell

As for labelling people naive and simplistic, well you lunge in with two feet on that score frequently attacking the person and not their argument. This is called 'ad hominem' and is a cardinal fallacy of debate.

Personally I'm wading into this binfest because I find it a bit much that our tabloids and other vessels of ignorance scream and demand (disingenuously I might add) such deference to the 'heroes' of British imperialist interests. A charity called 'help for heroes'? Come on! These people aren't our grandfathers signing up to thwart the march of Nazism across the free world. British FREEDOM is protected by nuclear warheads. British imperialist interests are pursued by the forces. To quote some of the less illustrious posters on here - 'end of'.

I sense that those who get particularly upset by this point of view are those emotionally invested in the armed forces. Those with children, friends or other relatives who choose to join up, or those that served themselves and are blinded by their fraudulent 'patriotism'. I think this (understandably) disengages their critical faculties, at least those who possess them to begin with.

As for the lads - yep it looks like they might have disengaged their critical faculties themselves. Perhaps someone in the touristy city centre sold them some crack, or suchlike, and it proved too, err, 'moreish' to resist going somewhere that anyone in their right mind would avoid like the plague, to score again? Either way it is a tragedy, though then again I don't disagree with the poster who says that it seems like they too knew what they were getting into (to a greater or lesser extent...) Hadn't they ever seen the wire?!

- JLS, loving a binfest since 1997

So you've quoted a couple of sayings by the likes of wilde and shaw that have been flogged to death since time immemorial, well done, completely and utterly debunked my argument.

 

[daveinprague]

Why are British soldiers being killed in Afghanistan again? Why are British 'experienced' soldiers being sent to Benghazi to aid/train one side of a countries civil war?

 

[JonathanLivingstonSeagull]

So you've quoted a couple of sayings by the likes of wilde and shaw that have been flogged to death since time immemorial, well done, completely and utterly debunked my argument.

I think the implication is that they have survived since time 'immemorial' for a reason. And I don't think any of these has been 'flogged to death'. Those that held the views expressed within the quotes were leading lights in literature, philosophy and education. Those that hold received views to they contrary about brave 'heroes' can be found, for example, at the front of EDL marches. Not saying that is ALL of each side but I think it further endorses the scathing view on patriotism and killing for your country. In this age of nuclear warheads the 'defense and service' argument is invalid.

You have also sidestepped everything else I've said, and engaged another fallacy of argument called 'reductio ad absurdum'. You've addressed one facet of my post and answered it in an absurd fashion and used it to rubbish the context. I think I'll eject here before it becomes any more of a cycle. I've said my piece.

 

[alan partridge]

not difficult to tell you're not long out of the challenging environment of the 6th form common room.

twice in one thread!

 

[Don Quixote]

Treacherous British people this is a thread about two lads being shot by someone in America, not about the army.

 

[User removed 4]

twice in one thread!

Your point is ?

 

[User removed 4]

Treacherous British people this is a thread about two lads being shot by someone in America, not about the army.

Might be an idea to read the posts mate, you dont need to do anything extra to look silly.

 

[User removed 4]

I think the implication is that they have survived since time 'immemorial' for a reason. And I don't think any of these has been 'flogged to death'. Those that held the views expressed within the quotes were leading lights in literature, philosophy and education. Those that hold received views to they contrary about brave 'heroes' can be found, for example, at the front of EDL marches. Not saying that is ALL of each side but I think it further endorses the scathing view on patriotism and killing for your country. In this age of nuclear warheads the 'defense and service' argument is invalid.

You have also sidestepped everything else I've said, and engaged another fallacy of argument called 'reductio ad absurdum'. You've addressed one facet of my post and answered it in an absurd fashion and used it to rubbish the context. I think I'll eject here before it becomes any more of a cycle. I've said my piece.

Ive just answered the pieces that i could be bothered to , funny how nobody starts shrieking about godwins law when someone like you brings up ww2, but lets face it , most servicemen in ww2 didnt have a choice about joining up did they ?

 

[The Ringleader Returns!]

I think you need to cut the last line into 2 separate lines and mention Adkins and that would be a corking chant.

I like der der der der infidel haters more.

 

[daveinprague]

because ww2 and fighting the most powerful military machine in Europe that constituted a direct threat of invasion to Britain, is the same as fighting shepherds in the mountains of Afghanistan on behalf of another nation.

 

[JonathanLivingstonSeagull]

OK fair point! I'm aghast that I've fallen foul of it!

Perhaps they didn't in WW2, though I confess to writing from the memory of my grandfather, who lied about his age to join up with the Navy.

I'm pleased you now illustrate that it is a choice to join the modern armed forces though.

 

[User removed 4]

because ww2 and fighting the most powerful military machine in Europe that constituted a direct threat of invasion to Britain, is the same as fighting shepherds in the mountains of Afghanistan on behalf of another nation.

Where did i say that ? Thats right I didnt.