The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[Herr Tubthumper]

I always vote, in all elections. I just don't think anything else is important apart from our economic future. It is the most important question and its something those supporting out just can't win on. So the water gets muddied by side issues of sovereignty and flag waving chest pumping bollocks. I'm not telling anyone how to vote, for me its only an economical question. Because if the economy takes a dive after a Brexit, Westminster democracy and going back to the (less than fantastic) UK law, will be a distant speck.

I see your point. If you don't have a solid economy unpinning a nation you don't have much else either.

 

[Goldstone1976]

Ah no, he's an ignorant git. People who want to stay in the EU are ignorant gits. I read it on here. Talk to one Nobel Prize winner and you've talked to them all.

Good point. And he's only a theoretical physicist after all. If he was a real physicist it might mean something.

*Pedant alert*

Hawking hasn't won a Nobel Prize. If you want the opinion of a Nobel Prize winner, look no further than Angus Deaton.

 

[Perfidious Albion]

It seems to a layman like me that the economic arguments are at best debatable , with the great and good of our establishment divided on the question.

For me, the offer to fast track the admission of Turkey is one good reason to get out fast!
There is strong reason to believe that they trade oil with ISIS, they certainly shot down a Russian fighter plane, they fight our Kurdish allies , and one would expect a lot of Turks to seek their fortune in the West.

The E U used to be a small , manageable group of Western European States, it seems to be spreading East wards to lands that gain most rather than being able to give a lot...

 

[Captain Sensible]

I see your point. If you don't have a solid economy unpinning a nation you don't have much else either.

Idiots like Chris Grayling seem to think that after a Brexit the EU will need the UK so bad that they will want to trade with US. Really? What if the EU do not agree a no strings free trade deal, what then? I can't see the EU suddenly giving the UK a free trade agreement without having their no.1 free movement in return. Its just not going to happen. Anyone that thinks the EU will throw away all of the main founding principles for the UK is vastly over estimating our worth to the EU. Its like a Palace fan thinking they can make Europe.

 

[5ways]

It seems to a layman like me that the economic arguments are at best debatable , with the great and good of our establishment divided on the question.

For me, the offer to fast track the admission of Turkey is one good reason to get out fast!
There is strong reason to believe that they trade oil with ISIS, they certainly shot down a Russian fighter plane, they fight our Kurdish allies , and one would expect a lot of Turks to seek their fortune in the West.

The E U used to be a small , manageable group of Western European States, it seems to be spreading East wards to lands that gain most rather than being able to give a lot...

Turkey is a long, long way from membership. Membership that I'm confident will be shot down by Cyprus with the tacit support of most other members.

 

[Captain Sensible]

It seems to a layman like me that the economic arguments are at best debatable , with the great and good of our establishment divided on the question.

For me, the offer to fast track the admission of Turkey is one good reason to get out fast!
There is strong reason to believe that they trade oil with ISIS, they certainly shot down a Russian fighter plane, they fight our Kurdish allies , and one would expect a lot of Turks to seek their fortune in the West.

The E U used to be a small , manageable group of Western European States, it seems to be spreading East wards to lands that gain most rather than being able to give a lot...

Turkey is a long long way off free movement, its the schengen area only in theory should this ever happen. Turks would always need a Visa to come here. Yet another example of muddied waters and not debating the economic benefits of brexit or remain.
There are massive Turkish communities here already by the way.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

*Pedant alert*

Hawking hasn't won a Nobel Prize. If you want the opinion of a Nobel Prize winner, look no further than Angus Deaton.

You are correct. But he's won the Albert Einstein Award which sounds quite brainy to me to I'll still defer to him on BREXIT.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Idiots like Chris Grayling seem to think that after a Brexit the EU will need the UK so bad that they will want to trade with US. Really? What if the EU do not agree a no strings free trade deal, what then? I can't see the EU suddenly giving the UK a free trade agreement without having their no.1 free movement in return. Its just not going to happen. Anyone that thinks the EU will throw away all of the main founding principles for the UK is vastly over estimating our worth to the EU. Its like a Palace fan thinking they can make Europe.

I fully agree.

 

[heathgate]

I always vote, in all elections. I just don't think anything else is important apart from our economic future. It is the most important question and its something those supporting out just can't win on. So the water gets muddied by side issues of sovereignty and flag waving chest pumping bollocks. I'm not telling anyone how to vote, for me its only an economical question. Because if the economy takes a dive after a Brexit, Westminster democracy and going back to the (less than fantastic) UK law, will be a distant speck.

Very noble. ....but the vast majority are voting on the other matters. ..... democracy and border control.....you can't argue that point..... but of course the economy whilst important,... is subjective at this stage, so the 'can't win on' statement you posted above, is moot to say the least.

 

[heathgate]

Idiots like Chris Grayling seem to think that after a Brexit the EU will need the UK so bad that they will want to trade with US. Really? What if the EU do not agree a no strings free trade deal, what then? I can't see the EU suddenly giving the UK a free trade agreement without having their no.1 free movement in return. Its just not going to happen. Anyone that thinks the EU will throw away all of the main founding principles for the UK is vastly over estimating our worth to the EU. Its like a Palace fan thinking they can make Europe.

The trade figures say otherwise......

 

[JC Footy Genius]

It seems to a layman like me that the economic arguments are at best debatable , with the great and good of our establishment divided on the question.

For me, the offer to fast track the admission of Turkey is one good reason to get out fast!
There is strong reason to believe that they trade oil with ISIS, they certainly shot down a Russian fighter plane, they fight our Kurdish allies , and one would expect a lot of Turks to seek their fortune in the West.

The E U used to be a small , manageable group of Western European States, it seems to be spreading East wards to lands that gain most rather than being able to give a lot...

The economic arguments are as you say debatable a broadly positive outlook can be found here http://www.politico.eu/article/making-the-economic-case-for-brexit/ See other contributors for the various doomsday scenarios.

It is certainly true that Europe's (Merkel's) desperation to stem the flow of migrants has brought forward the likelihood of Turkey joining sooner than previously thought as they hold a strong hand. Our PM could learn a thing or two about negotiating from the Turks! Mind you it isn' t a done deal and there is no guarantee these proposals will actually work.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-europe-migrants-germany-turkey-idUKKCN0SC08020151018

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...u-membership-in-a-dangerous-way-a6923006.html

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The trade figures say otherwise......

Is the deficit argument again?

 

[GT49er]

I always vote, in all elections. I just don't think anything else is important apart from our economic future. It is the most important question and its something those supporting out just can't win on. So the water gets muddied by side issues of sovereignty and flag waving chest pumping bollocks. I'm not telling anyone how to vote, for me its only an economical question. Because if the economy takes a dive after a Brexit, Westminster democracy and going back to the (less than fantastic) UK law, will be a distant speck.

True that the economic argument is realistically the only one that the 'In' campaign has put forward. Even if they are right, though, and the economy would dip for a while following a Brexit, to think that the economy is the only thing that matters is a blinkered view. The economy is important, but it is far from being the only consideration.

 

[brighton fella]

Good point. And he's only a theoretical physicist after all. If he was a real physicist it might mean something.

i had always assumed that this bloke was clever/intelligent with a free thinking mind, it just goes to show how you can be proved wrong..

 

[Captain Sensible]

The trade figures say otherwise......

No they don't. 28bn per month in exports are risk. 3million jobs, and we will most likely end up having to accept free movement in order to have access to free trade.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

*Pedant alert*

Hawking hasn't won a Nobel Prize. If you want the opinion of a Nobel Prize winner, look no further than Angus Deaton.

The reference was actually to the Nobel Prize winners who were in the list of signatories. I wasn't very clear.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

The trade figures say otherwise......

Every member would have to sign a free trade agreement between the EU and the UK. Not every EU member has a large trading surplus with the UK. Not every member would be in a hurry to sign.

 

[sir albion]

The trade figures say otherwise......

Trade figures are irrelevant when deciding who rules our country...forget the money and focus on what matters
Let's be frank the chances are very very high that we'll be much better off out and will always trade with Europe regardless of the hideous amounts of scaremongering.

If you actually think the European Union is a great thing then fair enough,but if anything many countries in it have got far far worse.The Brussels bunch are not interested in poverty throughout Europe and they're not interested in immigration amongst many other things.
If you want a European state and Brussels dictating and creaming us in which is plain to see then you crack on.
I'd bet my right bollock that if we stay the European Union they will drum up more idiotic policies and in tern let other countries like turkey in and who knows who else.
The identities of countries are changing and this will get far far worse.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Is he suggesting that all those jobs would cease to exist if we were to stop trading with the EU (although nobody is suggesting that would happen if we left the EU)?

Also, as we have mentioned before, the methodology is a bit suspect. The Treasury worked out what proportion of the country's total economic output is made up of exports to the EU. Then it calculated that proportion of the UK labour force. And that's the answer!

 

[sir albion]

Is he suggesting that all those jobs would cease to exist if we were to stop trading with the EU (although nobody is suggesting that would happen if we left the EU)?

Also, as we have mentioned before, the methodology is a bit suspect. The Treasury worked out what proportion of the country's total economic output is made up of exports to the EU. Then it calculated that proportion of the UK labour force. And that's the answer!

So he's clearly stating that we won't trade with the EU if we left lol
Maybe by trading everywhere when we leave we'll create 2 million jobs mmmmmm