The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[cunning fergus]

Check out the links Fergus has been posting as well.

Now now.......play nicely..........I know your game........

http://www.searchquotes.com/quotati...e_often_enough,_it_becomes_the_truth./330401/

 

[pastafarian]

Check out the links Fergus has been posting as well.

i have been checking the links from fergus for a very long time,as i pointed out to you many moons ago links are good

you could of course dispute all of his links,there are many i admit,and yet you dont....its not my fault you are lazy or cant see fault

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

yes you have grasped it.......its mad isnt it

new red tories like Herr T grasp it also but have decided instead for personal gain to suck on his balls and suck on the balls of big banks and big business,the only profiteers of The EU.
experiment

There are plenty of people with good and valid perceived reasons for staying in the EU......that is fine

never trust a bloke though that sells his values down the river because he wants an easier life

Personal gain? What are you on about?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

i have been checking the links from fergus for a very long time,as i pointed out to you many moons ago links are good

You obviously have a lot more time on your hands than me

 

[pastafarian]

Personal gain? What are you on about?

you said it was a right ball ache to go through customs like Americans

you dont want to queue up like Americans.......thats personal gain

 

[pastafarian]

You obviously have a lot more time on your hands than me

ok i see,you admit you dont have time to read his links but dismiss them anyway,.......you really are a modern german

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

you said it was a right ball ache to go through customs like Americans

you dont want to queue up like Americans.......thats personal gain

I see. I can live with that. I thought you might be trying to suggest something more material and/or financial.

 

[pastafarian]

I see. I can live with that. I thought you might be trying to suggest something more material and/or financial.

not at all,simply repeating how you wanted to stay in the EU because one reason queuing up like an american would be a ballache (your words not mine)

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

not at all,simply repeating how you wanted to stay in the EU because one reason queuing up like an american would be a ballache (your words not mine)

Out of interest don't you find queuing a ball-ache?

 

[Captain Sensible]

Ah I see where you are coming from (I think?). I thought your comment “The facts and stats back up that remaining is in the economic benefit of the U.K.” suggested it is a certain fact that our future economic performance will be better if we remain in the EU. Where as your position seems to be you would only consider leaving if a better credible economic performance could be assured outside the EU. Is this right? If it is, isn't that an impossible threshold to reach as we cannot predict how the European economy will look in a years time even if we stay in.

I also thought there was some dispute about your “how much the EU is worth to the UK and vice versa, how much membership costs verses how much capital is generated through trade” facts.

For instance this recent Government (vested 'staying in' interest?) briefing paper on EU UK economic relations says ..

Various studies have attempted to quantify the benefit or cost to the UK of its membership of the EU. This is a very difficult exercise and depends on a wide range of assumptions. Estimates vary significantly For example, a 2005 study by the Institute for Economic Affairs found a cost of between 3% and 4% of GDP while a 2013 study by the CBI found a net benefit of between 4% and 5% of GDP. A 2015 study by Open Europe found that the cost of the 100 most burdensome EU regulations was £33.3 billion a year

www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN06091.pdf

Not sure if your all eyes or all ears but your certainly not forthcoming in facts.

Interesting Article more official sources on the way forward are what's needed not what we already know. Yes you are correct, I am looking for any evidence of a better economic future outside of the EU. If no one can provide it then how can I vote for out?
Here is the HMRC's own figures on the UK's trade with the EU https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/OverseasTradeStatistics/Pages/OTS.aspx
December alone shows trade of imports and exports with the EU at over £58billion for the month of December 2015 alone!! So cost is 33bn a year compared to 60bn per MONTH in trade.
That is an incredible amount. That figure is much much higher when you add jobs that are associated with those trades in the form of companies and then those that profit from those companies right through to how much money their employees and families have to buy a coffee and keep local economic stability. Also the money to the exchequer from those companies and employees. Just how deep does that 1month in trade go? It's hard to put a figure on because as MasterCard say it's 'priceless'. Risk all that for the Unknown, or at best the same trade rights with worth conditions dictated by the EU. Our value to the EU is around 3% of the EU's GDP. I believe that some of us here in the uk are vastly over estimating our importance to the EU. There is nothing to show a better deal with the EU and the same or better level of trade will come with a Brexit. However examples of poor deals in order to trade with the EU are Switzerland and Norway. Let's not forget they start on a much more secure footing then the UK but are willing to accept EU bilateral directives in order to trade. They have all of the same immigration and free movement issues and are outside! Again, I have not seen evidence that we are better off out. The facts you ask me for are plain to see, we know the UK's worth to the EU and the EU's worth to the uk (financial terms). We don't know the values and figures after a Brexit. It surely up to those that want out to show a proven and credible way forward. I have yet to see it. This is the same mess as the Scots referendum, the out campaign just cannot and has not shown a credible economic way forward. You wouldn't buy a house not knowing its value or anything about it apart from thinking 'it's a house so it must have value'. If I am to vote out, I need to know the exact path we will economically take from an official source or as close to official as possible, or actual policy after a Brexit.

 

[Triggaaar]

I see. I can live with that. I thought you might be trying to suggest something more material and/or financial.

Unlikely, there isn't anything material and/or financial to be gained by staying in.

 

[5ways]

This naivety you have about politicians acting in the interests is endearingly, however for those of us that we're alive when Peter Ward was smashing in his goals, we REALLY know politicians are largely liars.

Take the man who is responsible for the law making and executive arm of the EU, who can institute laws that bypass national states elected parliament and is unelected by the EU electorate........he openly admits to being a liar and working against the electorate's wishes.

"Mr Juncker was head of the Eurogroup during the eurozone bailouts and was accused on several occasions of being less than frank about what was doing on.

He denied European finance ministers were holding a meeting to discuss Greece's membership of the euro, despite organising the gathering, and once memorably said: "When it becomes serious, you have to lie."

When the French were due to vote in a referendum on the EU constitution in 2005, he said: "If it's a yes, we will say, 'On we go', and if it's a no, we will say, We continue'."

http://www.channel4.com/news/jean-claude-juncker-what-you-should-know

You will be telling us that companies like Goldman Sachs only serve to act in our interests next you little tinker.........

I'm able to stomach it, even if I don't like it. He looks like a fascinating character. Hopefully someone can write a Caro-esque, or Caro-light, biography of him eventually.

 

[5ways]

Unlikely, there isn't anything material and/or financial to be gained by staying in.

Have you not been reading the thread? Try scrolling up ever so slightly.

 

[Triggaaar]

Have you not been reading the thread?

The fact you don't know suggests to me that you may have some cognitive issues.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Interesting Article more official sources on the way forward are what's needed not what we already know. Yes you are correct, I am looking for any evidence of a better economic future outside of the EU. If no one can provide it then how can I vote for out?
Here is the HMRC's own figures on the UK's trade with the EU https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/OverseasTradeStatistics/Pages/OTS.aspx
December alone shows trade of imports and exports with the EU at over £58billion for the month of December 2015 alone!! So cost is 33bn a year compared to 60bn per MONTH in trade.
That is an incredible amount. That figure is much much higher when you add jobs that are associated with those trades in the form of companies and then those that profit from those companies right through to how much money their employees and families have to buy a coffee and keep local economic stability. Also the money to the exchequer from those companies and employees. Just how deep does that 1month in trade go? It's hard to put a figure on because as MasterCard say it's 'priceless'. Risk all that for the Unknown, or at best the same trade rights with worth conditions dictated by the EU. Our value to the EU is around 3% of the EU's GDP. I believe that some of us here in the uk are vastly over estimating our importance to the EU. There is nothing to show a better deal with the EU and the same or better level of trade will come with a Brexit. However examples of poor deals in order to trade with the EU are Switzerland and Norway. Let's not forget they start on a much more secure footing then the UK but are willing to accept EU bilateral directives in order to trade. They have all of the same immigration and free movement issues and are outside! Again, I have not seen evidence that we are better off out. The facts you ask me for are plain to see, we know the UK's worth to the EU and the EU's worth to the uk (financial terms). We don't know the values and figures after a Brexit. It surely up to those that want out to show a proven and credible way forward. I have yet to see it. This is the same mess as the Scots referendum, the out campaign just cannot and has not shown a credible economic way forward. You wouldn't buy a house not knowing its value or anything about it apart from thinking 'it's a house so it must have value'. If I am to vote out, I need to know the exact path we will economically take from an official source or as close to official as possible, or actual policy after a Brexit.

The trade figures between the EU and the UK were covered in the independent parliamentary paper as was the argument on jobs and many other economic issues surrounding Brexit. After assessing all this information and referencing numerous reports and arguments from both sides it still came to the conclusion there is no definitive evidence that we would be better of staying in. Or that Brexit would be a better option.

As I said previously I think you are putting forward an impossible threshold as economic life outside the EU is subject to numerous assumptions and variables. As is economic life within the EU in the coming years. However I would agree the Brexit campaign should make a more coherent case and set out their vision for the future giving firm pledges where possible.

On your other points you say “Our value to the EU is around 3% of the EU's GDP” I say we would be the EU’s single largest trading partner for trade in goods and one of if not the largest export market for the EU. This would give us a substantial platform to work towards a mutually beneficial trade deal. I think comparisons with Norway and Switzerland are unhelpful as we are a the worlds 5th largest economy and have more economic/political/military clout than all the countries we are normally compared to combined. Interestingly a report by the Independent Think Tank Civitas (referenced earlier in this thread) did show how being an independent nation was beneficial for external trade deals when compared with combined EU trade deals. Having that collective voice more of a hindrance than a benefit apparently. One possible economic future benefit of Brexit that people should consider.

 

[Captain Sensible]

The trade figures between the EU and the UK were covered in the independent parliamentary paper as was the argument on jobs and many other economic issues surrounding Brexit. After assessing all this information and referencing numerous reports and arguments from both sides it still came to the conclusion there is no definitive evidence that we would be better of staying in. Or that Brexit would be a better option.

As I said previously I think you are putting forward an impossible threshold as economic life outside the EU is subject to numerous assumptions and variables. As is economic life within the EU in the coming years. However I would agree the Brexit campaign should make a more coherent case and set out their vision for the future giving firm pledges where possible.

On your other points you say “Our value to the EU is around 3% of the EU's GDP” I say we would be the EU’s single largest trading partner for trade in goods and one of if not the largest export market for the EU. This would give us a substantial platform to work towards a mutually beneficial trade deal. I think comparisons with Norway and Switzerland are unhelpful as we are a the worlds 5th largest economy and have more economic/political/military clout than all the countries we are normally compared to combined. Interestingly a report by the Independent Think Tank Civitas (referenced earlier in this thread) did show how being an independent nation was beneficial for external trade deals when compared with combined EU trade deals. Having that collective voice more of a hindrance than a benefit apparently. One possible economic future benefit of Brexit that people should consider.

You make some valid points and to be honest you make a better case than anyone I have heard, especially anyone on the official out campaign. Yes know no one knows the long term future of Brexit or Remain, however in the medium and short term we know what we are getting from the EU and then from us. As I said before I am looking at this choice on a purely economical basis. I am not swayed by nationalism or sovereignty or claims that being an EU member state is less democratic. It is not a concern of mine. But economically, even with all the problems that the EU has especially with immigration costs etc (and I am taking them into account). I still have yet to see an exit strategy or policy on how we would free trade without imposing EU treaties which put us in the same mess as we are now. I am asking those that want out and hoping to hear from the out campaign a definitive exit strategy that would be of economic benefit in the short, medium and long term future verses staying in. Until I know that voting out isn't just a leap of faith with substantial risk, I have no choice than to vote in. But JC FG I congratulate you on some good points raised and you are certainly a clearer voice than some on here over this issue of Brexit.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

turkey is only the start of things to come if we remain in, wouldn't wish to put a dampener on things but i reckon turkey is the least of our worries as compared with what awaits us.....

mate do you seriously see us coming out of this sh*thole because i don't, you mark my words in some corrupt way the ba*tards will keep us in...of that i have absolutely no doubt at all....

i hope you're wrong, we got a lot of hand wringing do gooders in this part of the world, you would like to think other parts of the country who have taken the full brunt of multi cultural Britain will not be so keen on staying in, i also believe the older generation will be more on the side of leaving, as for some of the younger one's i'm afraid they know no different to what they've been served up with, lets wait and see
regards
DR

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

He's been right all along as the hideous bunch from Brussels have a big agenda for Europe and to expand Europe as we are seeing...Having turkey in is just bloody hideous and opens up another massive door to Europe for extremists.

yes he ruffles the feathers by telling the truth, SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO ADMIRE
regards
DR

 

[Two Professors]

All this talk of re-negotiating trade deals with the EU is pointless.How many other countries will exit after us?Only the Germans and their minions will be left

 

[Soulman]