The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[pastafarian]

Out of interest don't you find queuing a ball-ache?

what a silly question to ask an Englishman

i love queuing,i positively thrive on it and like any good patriot i will join a queue just to find out what its for

honestly you foreigners are clueless

 

[pastafarian]

As I said before I am looking at this choice on a purely economical basis. I am not swayed by nationalism or sovereignty or claims that being an EU member state is less democratic. It is not a concern of mine. But economically, even with all the problems that the EU has especially with immigration costs etc (and I am taking them into account)

Out of interest why is it you are not concerned at all with the other issues surrounding the Brexit debate like democratic accountability where 65% of UK law is EU influenced or sovereignty or place immigration issues more prominently in your thinking
You may be one of the many people who don’t vote come election time and are not concerned about issues as long as there is a pay cheque every friday,I don’t know and im not judging that,but it seems to me there are a raft of issues surrounding the EU that can and should influence someones overall vote choice and not simply the economy.

 

[cunning fergus]

I'm able to stomach it, even if I don't like it. He looks like a fascinating character. Hopefully someone can write a Caro-esque, or Caro-light, biography of him eventually.

Ah yes, a most forgiving attitude..........the most powerful man in Europe, a self confessed liar, unelected by the people avoiding being held to account for his part in tax avoidance schemes......and even by the EU Parliament?

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/world_news/Europe/article1606181.ece

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2015/11/year-europes-tax-affairs-are-still-mystery

Given his propensity for outright deceit, complete disregard for democracy and his accommodation of the largesse of big business I can understand why young buck Tories like you are so keen to stay in.

More champagne what?

 

[5ways]

Ah yes, a most forgiving attitude..........the most powerful man in Europe, a self confessed liar, unelected by the people avoiding being held to account for his part in tax avoidance schemes......and even by the EU Parliament?

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/world_news/Europe/article1606181.ece

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2015/11/year-europes-tax-affairs-are-still-mystery

Given his propensity for outright deceit, complete disregard for democracy and his accommodation of the largesse of big business I can understand why young buck Tories like you are so keen to stay in.

More champagne what?

Just as an aside I'm not a tory, I'll pass on the champagne - would cloud my clear-sighted and sober judgement (). When it comes to tax I think it is one area where clearly the more divided you are the easier it is to abuse the system. Proper Europe-wide regulation and enforcement will help, but it is a global problem. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f1797650-ce7c-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377.html

 

[cunning fergus]

Just as an aside I'm not a tory, I'll pass on the champagne - would cloud my clear-sighted and sober judgement (). When it comes to tax I think it is one area where clearly the more divided you are the easier it is to abuse the system. Proper Europe-wide regulation and enforcement will help, but it is a global problem. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f1797650-ce7c-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377.html

No, you could not be more wrong if you tried. You are a Tory.

Over the course of this thread you have been a cheerleader for Goldman Sachs, HSBC and any voice massaging the interests of big business, even when they highlighted "rising labour costs" as a negative of Brexit. The interests of the workers is secondary to the profits and bonuses of their bosses.........Toryism at its best.

The EU referendum crystallises the debate between the interests of the British working class and their "betters". To quote a passage from the attached article that sets out the contradiction of labour's pro eu policy and the impact on their working class supporters.........

The referendum campaign will become, in part, a campaign between the winners and losers of globalisation. While senior Labour politicians seem to feel comfortable speaking to pro-EU middle-class voters who have seen the visible gains of EU membership, they have little to say to Eurosceptic working-class voters who have suffered on the other end. The Labour Party’s message to these voters is little more than ‘you’re wrong’

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-electoral-implications-of-labours-eu-referendum-stance/

I am politically old labour, based on a Labour Party ideology that was avowedly eurosceptic before the Tories had even considered it. The Tories years ago were acting in the interests of the likes Goldman Sachs and HSBC in those days to take us in.

If you are not old enough to remember the euro debate, this situation is ancient history...........but it why you and you pro eu shills are sh!thouse Tories taking another long piss on the chips of the British working class.

It's why the EU is chocked full of similar corporate cheerleaders.........Juncker leading the Commission merely a case in point.........it's why your strong Tory stomach can cope with the lying tax avoiding w@nker being in charge.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

what a silly question to ask an Englishman

i love queuing,i positively thrive on it and like any good patriot i will join a queue just to find out what its for

honestly you foreigners are clueless

Oi, get to the back

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

"The theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking has backed the campaign for Britain to stay in the EU, saying Brexit would be a “disaster for UK science”.

See, people with brains want to stay.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

"The theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking has backed the campaign for Britain to stay in the EU, saying Brexit would be a “disaster for UK science”.

See, people with brains want to stay.

only for their own means
regards
DR

 

[Lincoln Imp]

"The theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking has backed the campaign for Britain to stay in the EU, saying Brexit would be a “disaster for UK science”.

See, people with brains want to stay.

Ah no, he's an ignorant git. People who want to stay in the EU are ignorant gits. I read it on here. Talk to one Nobel Prize winner and you've talked to them all.

 

[sten_super]

No, you could not be more wrong if you tried. You are a Tory.

Over the course of this thread you have been a cheerleader for Goldman Sachs, HSBC and any voice massaging the interests of big business, even when they highlighted "rising labour costs" as a negative of Brexit. The interests of the workers is secondary to the profits and bonuses of their bosses.........Toryism at its best.

The EU referendum crystallises the debate between the interests of the British working class and their "betters". To quote a passage from the attached article that sets out the contradiction of labour's pro eu policy and the impact on their working class supporters.........

The referendum campaign will become, in part, a campaign between the winners and losers of globalisation. While senior Labour politicians seem to feel comfortable speaking to pro-EU middle-class voters who have seen the visible gains of EU membership, they have little to say to Eurosceptic working-class voters who have suffered on the other end. The Labour Party’s message to these voters is little more than ‘you’re wrong’

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-electoral-implications-of-labours-eu-referendum-stance/

I am politically old labour, based on a Labour Party ideology that was avowedly eurosceptic before the Tories had even considered it. The Tories years ago were acting in the interests of the likes Goldman Sachs and HSBC in those days to take us in.

If you are not old enough to remember the euro debate, this situation is ancient history...........but it why you and you pro eu shills are sh!thouse Tories taking another long piss on the chips of the British working class.

It's why the EU is chocked full of similar corporate cheerleaders.........Juncker leading the Commission merely a case in point.........it's why your strong Tory stomach can cope with the lying tax avoiding w@nker being in charge.

I agree with the reference that you cite, and parts of your argument. Where I'd disagree is in the diagnosis of the problem; the dislike of the EU (due to poorer perceived outcomes for the working class) is IMHO part of the wider issue of globalisation (which has led to worse outcomes for the working class, at least in the short term). It is globalisation (rather than EU membership) that has seen British jobs outsourced (some to the EU, some to places like India) or taken by immigrants; it is globalisation that means that capital and labour (at the top end) is more mobile than ever, and which has led to the low-taxation world in which we now live. The EU is (wrongly, IMHO) seen as an article of globalisation, when in fact it's political views seem generally more socialist than those of the typical UK voter (and certainly the current UK government). It's lead action on climate change, worker rights and driving innovation where the UK has belatedly (and sometimes begrudgingly) followed, while also giving a platform for the UK to share it's best practice with European partners.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Ah no, he's an ignorant git. People who want to stay in the EU are ignorant gits. I read it on here. Talk to one Nobel Prize winner and you've talked to them all.

Good point. And he's only a theoretical physicist after all. If he was a real physicist it might mean something.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

No, you could not be more wrong if you tried. You are a Tory.

Over the course of this thread you have been a cheerleader for Goldman Sachs, HSBC and any voice massaging the interests of big business, even when they highlighted "rising labour costs" as a negative of Brexit. The interests of the workers is secondary to the profits and bonuses of their bosses.........Toryism at its best.

The EU referendum crystallises the debate between the interests of the British working class and their "betters". To quote a passage from the attached article that sets out the contradiction of labour's pro eu policy and the impact on their working class supporters.........

The referendum campaign will become, in part, a campaign between the winners and losers of globalisation. While senior Labour politicians seem to feel comfortable speaking to pro-EU middle-class voters who have seen the visible gains of EU membership, they have little to say to Eurosceptic working-class voters who have suffered on the other end. The Labour Party’s message to these voters is little more than ‘you’re wrong’

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-electoral-implications-of-labours-eu-referendum-stance/

I am politically old labour, based on a Labour Party ideology that was avowedly eurosceptic before the Tories had even considered it. The Tories years ago were acting in the interests of the likes Goldman Sachs and HSBC in those days to take us in.

If you are not old enough to remember the euro debate, this situation is ancient history...........but it why you and you pro eu shills are sh!thouse Tories taking another long piss on the chips of the British working class.

It's why the EU is chocked full of similar corporate cheerleaders.........Juncker leading the Commission merely a case in point.........it's why your strong Tory stomach can cope with the lying tax avoiding w@nker being in charge.

I'm surprised that an old labour guy would be pro-leave. For me the ideals of soverignity, democracy, controlling our own fate are just that, ideals, whereas what the EU delivers a e tangible laws that are a positive for our nation as a whole. Worker's rights, workplace safety, equality, environmental protections are all areas where the EU is a positive for the populace of the UK and our own government regularlry protests or tries to overturn these rules in favour of business.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I'm surprised that an old labour guy would be pro-leave. For me the ideals of soverignity, democracy, controlling our own fate are just that, ideals, whereas what the EU delivers a e tangible laws that are a positive for our nation as a whole. Worker's rights, workplace safety, equality, environmental protections are all areas where the EU is a positive for the populace of the UK and our own government regularlry protests or tries to overturn these rules in favour of business.

It makes you wonder why all these pro big business lobby groups and numerous other business surveys show broad support for continued EU membership if the EU is doing such a sterling job standing up for workers rights.

Evidence suggests some of the low skilled, lowest payed UK citizens are losing out as the job market place is flooded by EU citizens forcing wages down to a minimum. This also makes it more difficult for the UK unemployed to find work as many entry level jobs are low skill/pay. Now I'm sure we would all welcome a similar scenario in our particular job sectors .. but I can definitely see how business would support this ongoing scenario of cheap unlimited Labour driving down costs and wages. One solution could be limiting EU immigration but of course we can't do that as we do not control our own borders in this area. Could raising the minimum wage be a solution? Well we will see when the new living wage is up and running offering increased pay plus a massive new draw for even more EU migrants to head to our shores.

 

[5ways]

No, you could not be more wrong if you tried. You are a Tory.

Over the course of this thread you have been a cheerleader for Goldman Sachs, HSBC and any voice massaging the interests of big business, even when they highlighted "rising labour costs" as a negative of Brexit. The interests of the workers is secondary to the profits and bonuses of their bosses.........Toryism at its best.

The EU referendum crystallises the debate between the interests of the British working class and their "betters". To quote a passage from the attached article that sets out the contradiction of labour's pro eu policy and the impact on their working class supporters.........

The referendum campaign will become, in part, a campaign between the winners and losers of globalisation. While senior Labour politicians seem to feel comfortable speaking to pro-EU middle-class voters who have seen the visible gains of EU membership, they have little to say to Eurosceptic working-class voters who have suffered on the other end. The Labour Party’s message to these voters is little more than ‘you’re wrong’

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-electoral-implications-of-labours-eu-referendum-stance/

I am politically old labour, based on a Labour Party ideology that was avowedly eurosceptic before the Tories had even considered it. The Tories years ago were acting in the interests of the likes Goldman Sachs and HSBC in those days to take us in.

If you are not old enough to remember the euro debate, this situation is ancient history...........but it why you and you pro eu shills are sh!thouse Tories taking another long piss on the chips of the British working class.

It's why the EU is chocked full of similar corporate cheerleaders.........Juncker leading the Commission merely a case in point.........it's why your strong Tory stomach can cope with the lying tax avoiding w@nker being in charge.

Why do the Unions support the EU then? Why does Corbyn? The EU has actual socialists in it, who fight for workers rights and protect workers through workplace safety regulation, time directives etc.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...n-mccluskey-trade-union-support-eu-referendum

Also when the Labour party was avowedly anti-EU they got destroyed. When Blair was able to flip the Tories into being the anti-EU party Labour succeeded.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Could raising the minimum wage be a solution? Well we will see when the new living wage is up and running offering increased pay plus a massive new draw for even more EU migrants to head to our shores.

This is part of the solution. The other is to create real semi-skilled and skilled jobs primarily by building up the manufacturing sector. Then educate and train UK people to do these jobs.

I don't agree higher wages will result in more foreign employment. If the wage is sufficiently high it removes the ability to undercut by willingness to work for less. So then it just comes down to who's the best candidate which is a fairer playing field and probably tipped in a Brits favour as English is his mother-tongue.

 

[GT49er]

Ah no, he's an ignorant git. People who want to stay in the EU are ignorant gits. I read it on here. Talk to one Nobel Prize winner and you've talked to them all.

I think you'll find that when it comes to a actual vote that Nobel Prize winners will be an insignificant minority, whichever way they vote!

 

[heathgate]

"The theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking has backed the campaign for Britain to stay in the EU, saying Brexit would be a “disaster for UK science”.

See, people with brains want to stay.

Not forgetting to add in that students and scientists from all over the world have travelled here to study and research, and visa versa for centuries of course..... how is that going to change? .....

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Not forgetting to add in that students and scientists from all over the world have travelled here to study and research, and visa versa for centuries of course..... how is that going to change? .....

I don't know personally but I'll defer to Stephen Hawkin and 149 other eminent scientists. Here's how it's going to change:

The theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking has backed the campaign for Britain to stay in the EU, saying Brexit would be a “disaster for UK science”.
A letter to the Times signed by more than 150 fellows of the Royal Society, including Hawking, claims that leaving the EU would hamper research in Britain because many young scientists are recruited from Europe.
The scientists write: “We now recruit many of our best researchers from continental Europe, including younger ones who have obtained EU grants and have chosen to move with them here.
“Being able to attract and fund the most talented Europeans assures the future of British science and also encourages the best scientists elsewhere to come here.”
Stephen Hawking was one of more than 150 fellows of the Royal Society who signed a letter to the Times backing Britain’smembership of the EU

The letter also said that increased funding from the EU has benefited the UK and science as a whole. The scientists note the example of Switzerland, which despite paying in to the EU has limited access to funds and struggles to attract young talent because of freedom of movement restrictions. “If the UK leaves the EU and there is a loss of freedom of movement of scientists between the UK and Europe, it will be a disaster for UK science and universities,” the letter says.
“Investment in science is as important for the long-term prosperity and security of the UK as investment in infrastructure projects, farming or manufacturing; and the free movement of scientists is as important for science as free trade is for market economics,” it adds.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

This is part of the solution. The other is to create real semi-skilled and skilled jobs primarily by building up the manufacturing sector. Then educate and train UK people to do these jobs.

I don't agree higher wages will result in more foreign employment. If the wage is sufficiently high it removes the ability to undercut by willingness to work for less. So then it just comes down to who's the best candidate which is a fairer playing field and probably tipped in a Brits favour as English is his mother-tongue.

There are probably many real semi skilled and skilled job vacancies even now but having one Europe wide job market reduces the need/incentive to train up the home grown workforce as any demand could be quickly filled by EU workers. Which is why after 10+ years of Labour government and 5 years of coalition government it hasn't happened.They have come to rely on large-scale immigration which is why they have done nothing about reducing the numbers of non EU migrants despite the rhetoric.

You can disagree that a guaranteed significant increase in hourly pay leading to an even starker difference of possible earnings when compared to their home country is unlikely to be a massive draw but I think any rational person would think the opposite.

 

[Captain Sensible]

Out of interest why is it you are not concerned at all with the other issues surrounding the Brexit debate like democratic accountability where 65% of UK law is EU influenced or sovereignty or place immigration issues more prominently in your thinking
You may be one of the many people who don’t vote come election time and are not concerned about issues as long as there is a pay cheque every friday,I don’t know and im not judging that,but it seems to me there are a raft of issues surrounding the EU that can and should influence someones overall vote choice and not simply the economy.

I always vote, in all elections. I just don't think anything else is important apart from our economic future. It is the most important question and its something those supporting out just can't win on. So the water gets muddied by side issues of sovereignty and flag waving chest pumping bollocks. I'm not telling anyone how to vote, for me its only an economical question. Because if the economy takes a dive after a Brexit, Westminster democracy and going back to the (less than fantastic) UK law, will be a distant speck.