The great Vicente saga - 2012 edition [All quite exciting in the end]

[Bold Seagull]

Does this not mean that if we had not been negotiating a contract with him, he would then have a right to..."make such
enquiries or approaches as thought fit to secure employment when the agreement or renewal of it terminates."

But we were negotiating a contract with him...

Were we!? Seems that Gus can make a statement about one thing and it has no relevance, and can make a statement about another and we were negotiating. I honestly don't know. Too many people on here seem to have made their minds up completely based on very little. I've not claimed to know either way, just presented a case making assumptions in the defence of the player.

 

[kano]

I wonder if this wrangling will ultimately do us more harm than good. OK its annoying he wants to leave and not honour the deal he signed, but he wants to play for someone close to home....kind of fair enough, when we signed him it was widely documented that he was a bit of a big girls blouse and had trouble getting his head right as much as getting physically fit.... its not like its Southampton or Reading he wants to go to.

What is the word of our manager worth? Will this have an impact on ambitious players considering signing for us if they know that theres a chance we will hold them to their contracts against their will. If a player wants to leave its usually best to let them go, especially if the manager promised he wouldnt get in their way!

Sadly neither BHA nor Vicente are coming out of this looking particularly good.

 

[dingodan]

Were we!? Seems that Gus can make a statement about one thing and it has no relevance, and can make a statement about another and we were negotiating. I honestly don't know. Too many people on here seem to have made their minds up completely based on very little. I've not claimed to know either way, just presented a case making assumptions in the defence of the player.

Yes we were negotiating. Basically, the provision you pointed out seems to me to suggest that if a club no longer want a player, and decline to talk about a new deal within a certain timeframe, then the player has a right to make his plans for the future. That was never the case with Vicente, it was always clear we wanted him to sign a new deal, and the club have been hammering that out, while at the same time he has been approached by, or approaching other clubs. Which I think is in breach of contract rules.

 

[Aadam]

You're own post confirms my point and contradicted your own, thanks for finding it, just a case of highlighting the wrong part.

(iii) If, by the time specified for such notice to be served, the Player has not
received notice exercising an option or offering a further re-engagement
under paragraph C1(j) of this Rule, the Player is free to make such
enquiries or approaches as thought fit to secure employment when the
agreement or renewal of it terminates.

But he has received notification that Brighton have exercised the option. So I'm not sure I see your point.

 

[dingodan]

I wonder if this wrangling will ultimately do us more harm than good. OK its annoying he wants to leave and not honour the deal he signed, but he wants to play for someone close to home....kind of fair enough, when we signed him it was widely documented that he was a bit of a big girls blouse and had trouble getting his head right as much as getting physically fit.... its not like its Southampton or Reading he wants to go to.

What is the word of our manager worth? Will this have an impact on ambitious players considering signing for us if they know that theres a chance we will hold them to their contracts against their will. If a player wants to leave its usually best to let them go, especially if the manager promised he wouldnt get in their way!

Sadly neither BHA nor Vicente are coming out of this looking particularly good.

Any player who is worried they may not be able to break their contract and leave, or worried that our manager is not enough of a walk over, those players are probably not players we want at our club anyway.

 

[Bold Seagull]

But he has received notification that Brighton have exercised the option. So I'm not sure I see your point.

For someone who wants to put it to bed, you certainly like picking to the bare bones don't you!? The point being is that Vicente could have spoken to other clubs prior to the 27 June when the club announced they were exercising the option (or a few days before assuming - like everything else, they notified before the public announcement). In the weeks leading up to that, he would have been entitled to make enquiries and approaches.

Whether BHA had actually made a firm offer or not is another debate. I've not seen anything to suggest they have or had, just that Gus said he was confident Vicente was 90-95% certain to sign. Who knows, my whole point on this is countering the blame being put firmly on the player.

 

[Gritt23]

I think the thread title could justifiably be change to just "the long of it" now.

Amazing how many people seem to have made their minds up about Vicente, his attitude, etc, when the truth is we know very very little in the way of actual FACTS.

This could all just be how the agents of big players (and that's what we've got here) behave in contract negotiations. All is left to them, and there is a whole load of push and pull before everyone joins in a group hug, something is agreed one way or the other, and everyone moves on.

Just sit back, ignore the speculation and wait for some actual NEWS.

 

[dingodan]

The point being is that Vicente could have spoken to other clubs prior to the 27 June when the club announced they were exercising the option (or a few days before assuming - like everything else, they notified before the public announcement). In the weeks leading up to that, he would have been entitled to make enquiries and approaches.

During the term of his contract, and while still negotiating with his current club, he cannot speak to other clubs, and they cannot speak to him. How hard is this to understand?

 

[Easy 10]

Just sit back, ignore the speculation and wait for some actual NEWS.

Thats not how it works on here, newbie.

 

[Aadam]

For someone who wants to put it to bed, you certainly like picking to the bare bones don't you!? The point being is that Vicente could have spoken to other clubs prior to the 27 June when the club announced they were exercising the option (or a few days before assuming - like everything else, they notified before the public announcement). In the weeks leading up to that, he would have been entitled to make enquiries and approaches.

Whether BHA had actually made a firm offer or not is another debate. I've not seen anything to suggest they have or had, just that Gus said he was confident Vicente was 90-95% certain to sign. Who knows, my whole point on this is countering the blame being put firmly on the player.

You said I contradicted myself. I was just clearing up the facts for you, so you understood that I was not contradicting myself.

The point is not as highlighted above at all. Vicente could not speak to other clubs because he was under contract at Brighton. I'm not sure how many more times this needs to be said, but a player cannot talk to other clubs, as stipulated in the rules, whilst he is under contract with his current employers without consent from said employers.

The rules are all here: http://www.thefa.com/TheFA/~/media/Files/PDF/TheFA/Rules_Regs/RulesOfTheAssociation201112.ashx/RulesOfTheAssociation201112.pdf all 136 pages worth. Feel free to have a read, and if you find it does say that you can talk to other clubs, whilst under contract without your clubs consent, I'll accept I'm wrong.

One last time...

Until the existing agreement (i.e., his previous contract that expired 30 June 2012) or any renewal of it (new contract expiring 30 June 2013) has terminated: a Player may not enter into any agreement with any other Club in membership with The Association, or an Affiliated Association, or of any other national football association; and the Player may not be approached by any other Club, or Club Official of any other Club, or any person with a view to inducing the Player to leave the Club for which the Player is registered, except with the written permission of that Club.

 

[Gritt23]

Thats not how it works on here, newbie.

It's how it's ALWAYS worked for me with Vicente. How many times did we hear people saying he was completely crocked last season, what a waste of money he'd been, he'd never be fit enough, blah, blah, blah.

All along I've just treated every minute I get of Vicente as a tremendous pleasure, and when I've clapped him off the field, I've done so as if it's teh last time I'd see him grace the stripes, and just delighted that I'd seen what I have of him. Whether it's due to fitness, illness, desire to be here, or someone tempting him away, it's all been the same to me with Vicente ..... I've just delighted in what I've seen up til now.

If he stays, fantastic, if he's gone, it's been fantastic. But right here, right now, we KNOW nothing. Simples.

 

[One Robbie Reinelt]

It's how it's ALWAYS worked for me with Vicente. How many times did we hear people saying he was completely crocked last season, what a waste of money he'd been, he'd never be fit enough, blah, blah, blah.

All along I've just treated every minute I get of Vicente as a tremendous pleasure, and when I've clapped him off the field, I've done so as if it's teh last time I'd see him grace the stripes, and just delighted that I'd seen what I have of him. Whether it's due to fitness, illness, desire to be here, or someone tempting him away, it's all been the same to me with Vicente ..... I've just delighted in what I've seen up til now.

If he stays, fantastic, if he's gone, it's been fantastic. But right here, right now, we KNOW nothing. Simples.

Good post. Agree totally.

 

[Kumquat]

It's how it's ALWAYS worked for me with Vicente. How many times did we hear people saying he was completely crocked last season, what a waste of money he'd been, he'd never be fit enough, blah, blah, blah.

All along I've just treated every minute I get of Vicente as a tremendous pleasure, and when I've clapped him off the field, I've done so as if it's teh last time I'd see him grace the stripes, and just delighted that I'd seen what I have of him. Whether it's due to fitness, illness, desire to be here, or someone tempting him away, it's all been the same to me with Vicente ..... I've just delighted in what I've seen up til now.

If he stays, fantastic, if he's gone, it's been fantastic. But right here, right now, we KNOW nothing. Simples.

Yep. Always been my view. If he goes will just replay that run and shot against Derby a few more times. While masturbating furiously no doubt. Until I get over it. plenty more fish in the sea.

 

[Bold Seagull]

You said I contradicted myself. I was just clearing up the facts for you, so you understood that I was not contradicting myself.

The point is not as highlighted above at all. Vicente could not speak to other clubs because he was under contract at Brighton. I'm not sure how many more times this needs to be said, but a player cannot talk to other clubs, as stipulated in the rules, whilst he is under contract with his current employers without consent from said employers.

The rules are all here: http://www.thefa.com/TheFA/~/media/Files/PDF/TheFA/Rules_Regs/RulesOfTheAssociation201112.ashx/RulesOfTheAssociation201112.pdf all 136 pages worth. Feel free to have a read, and if you find it does say that you can talk to other clubs, whilst under contract without your clubs consent, I'll accept I'm wrong.

One last time...

Until the existing agreement (i.e., his previous contract that expired 30 June 2012) or any renewal of it (new contract expiring 30 June 2013) has terminated: a Player may not enter into any agreement with any other Club in membership with The Association, or an Affiliated Association, or of any other national football association; and the Player may not be approached by any other Club, or Club Official of any other Club, or any person with a view to inducing the Player to leave the Club for which the Player is registered, except with the written permission of that Club.

So you're trying to prove your point by asking me to read a document to prove you right?! Very clever, I must try that sometime. If you want to prove me wrong (as I did highlight the relevant clause before) then please do so, I have chuckled at the implication though!

 

[Easy 10]

It's how it's ALWAYS worked for me with Vicente. How many times did we hear people saying he was completely crocked last season, what a waste of money he'd been, he'd never be fit enough, blah, blah, blah.

All along I've just treated every minute I get of Vicente as a tremendous pleasure, and when I've clapped him off the field, I've done so as if it's teh last time I'd see him grace the stripes, and just delighted that I'd seen what I have of him. Whether it's due to fitness, illness, desire to be here, or someone tempting him away, it's all been the same to me with Vicente ..... I've just delighted in what I've seen up til now.

If he stays, fantastic, if he's gone, it's been fantastic. But right here, right now, we KNOW nothing. Simples.

All true of course. But it wouldn't be NSC if there wasn't a 60-pager of speculation all based on limited unconfirmed reports.

Anyway, whilst I agree with your sentiments re the player, I'll not be overly impressed if this current situation drags on and on with him and his agent. Gus needs to know where he stands re his targets and his budget, and until someone shits or gets off the pot in this saga, we're somewhat in limbo when it comes to the transfer market for Gus's midfield circa 2012-13. He'll have pegged Vicente as the hub, but if he's decided he's cocking off now though, we need to be addressing that asap, not x number of weeks down the line.

 

[Easy 10]

And re the Bosman thing, I always thought players were free to speak with other clubs once their contract is within 6 months of expiring. They just can't MOVE to that club until the contract is up obviously, unless the club he is at agrees to a deal.

 

[Acker79]

You said I contradicted myself. I was just clearing up the facts for you, so you understood that I was not contradicting myself.

The point is not as highlighted above at all. Vicente could not speak to other clubs because he was under contract at Brighton. I'm not sure how many more times this needs to be said, but a player cannot talk to other clubs, as stipulated in the rules, whilst he is under contract with his current employers without consent from said employers.

The rules are all here: http://www.thefa.com/TheFA/~/media/Files/PDF/TheFA/Rules_Regs/RulesOfTheAssociation201112.ashx/RulesOfTheAssociation201112.pdf all 136 pages worth. Feel free to have a read, and if you find it does say that you can talk to other clubs, whilst under contract without your clubs consent, I'll accept I'm wrong.

One last time...

Until the existing agreement (i.e., his previous contract that expired 30 June 2012) or any renewal of it (new contract expiring 30 June 2013) has terminated: a Player may not enter into any agreement with any other Club in membership with The Association, or an Affiliated Association, or of any other national football association; and the Player may not be approached by any other Club, or Club Official of any other Club, or any person with a view to inducing the Player to leave the Club for which the Player is registered, except with the written permission of that Club.

"Within 7 days of the fi rst Saturday in May, or the date of the last
competitive Match of the Club’s fi rst team, whichever is the later, the Club
must give notice in writing to the Player indicating that either the Club
off ers a re-engagement or, if appropriate, exercises any option contained
in the agreement." (j)iii)

and

"If, by the time specifi ed for such notice to be served, the Player has not
received notice exercising an option or off ering a further re-engagement
under paragraph C1(j) of this Rule, the Player is free to make such
enquiries or approaches as thought fi t to secure employment when the
agreement or renewal of it terminates." iii)

and

"An existing agreement shall continue and have full force and eff ect
between the parties on the terms and conditions as those pertaining
prior to the expiration of the initial period of employment, or the option
period if appropriate, and the Player will continue to train and play as
instructed by the Club until 31st August, or the date on which the Player
registers for another Club, whichever is the sooner." (j)ix)

As I read that, the club have until 7 days after the first saturday in may (12th may) (or 7 days after last first team competitive game, which was 5th may) to inform Vicente in writing they intend to negotiate a new deal or activate the option to retain him for a second year (Jiii). If they do not, he is free to negotiate with anyone (niii), however, the club can still activate their option until thre contract expires (appears to be 31st of august) and it will supersede any deal he may have made (jix).

 

[Aadam]

So you're trying to prove your point by asking me to read a document to prove you right?! Very clever, I must try that sometime. If you want to prove me wrong (as I did highlight the relevant clause before) then please do so, I have chuckled at the implication though!

No. I'm asking you to read a document to prove you're right. So far all you have offered to the discussion is your opinion without backing that up with fact. I have backed up my opinion with fact by quoting verbatim from the FA Rules of the Association of which clubs and players have to adhere to. To be honest, this is the internet, you're entitled to an opinion, I just don't find it conducive to a decent debate when people saying things that are not true, or don't provide back-up to things they've said.

 

[macky]

I wonder if this wrangling will ultimately do us more harm than good. OK its annoying he wants to leave and not honour the deal he signed, but he wants to play for someone close to home....kind of fair enough, when we signed him it was widely documented that he was a bit of a big girls blouse and had trouble getting his head right as much as getting physically fit.... its not like its Southampton or Reading he wants to go to.

What is the word of our manager worth? Will this have an impact on ambitious players considering signing for us if they know that theres a chance we will hold them to their contracts against their will. If a player wants to leave its usually best to let them go, especially if the manager promised he wouldnt get in their way!

Sadly neither BHA nor Vicente are coming out of this looking particularly good.

It would so even worse If we let it be known we would let players out of their contract if they just played up a bit Bloody hell they could all go for nothing

 

[Aadam]

"Within 7 days of the fi rst Saturday in May, or the date of the last
competitive Match of the Club’s fi rst team, whichever is the later, the Club
must give notice in writing to the Player indicating that either the Club
off ers a re-engagement or, if appropriate, exercises any option contained
in the agreement." (j)iii)

and

"If, by the time specifi ed for such notice to be served, the Player has not
received notice exercising an option or off ering a further re-engagement
under paragraph C1(j) of this Rule, the Player is free to make such
enquiries or approaches as thought fi t to secure employment when the
agreement or renewal of it terminates." iii)

and

"An existing agreement shall continue and have full force and eff ect
between the parties on the terms and conditions as those pertaining
prior to the expiration of the initial period of employment, or the option
period if appropriate, and the Player will continue to train and play as
instructed by the Club until 31st August, or the date on which the Player
registers for another Club, whichever is the sooner." (j)ix)

As I read that, the club have until 7 days after the first saturday in may (12th may) (or 7 days after last first team competitive game, which was 5th may) to inform Vicente in writing they intend to negotiate a new deal or activate the option to retain him for a second year (Jiii). If they do not, he is free to negotiate with anyone (niii), however, the club can still activate their option and it will supersede any deal he may have made (jix).

Quite right.

And according to the man himself, Poyet said: “We were trying to negotiate a new contract and unfortunately we couldn’t agree so we needed to activate the option. That is common sense." -- they key thing to understand here is whether or not this was done within the required time. It would appear so, as he also said: “We did it this way around because we thought we had a great chance to negotiate the new contract by now. It’s a timing thing more than anything else."

I would find it hard to believe they didn't do this in time to ensure he couldn't be tempted by others. But that's just speculative thinking.

Anyway, it's hard to gauge just how much was done and by when. The facts are, Vicente has never been out of contract. Vicente was offered a new contract (that he appears to either have not accepted, or not replied to (I was assume the former since his agent makes reference to them pushing back for an improved offer)). Vicente is still under contract.