[Politics] The General Election Thread

[Kalimantan Gull]

If it's not a draw,then why come from the Phillipines?

Income inequality is a bit higher to the Philippines, and they don't have to pay any upfront costs for visa or flights. But we are struggling to fill the vacancies because not enough of them are passing the English language tests.

My point was merely an anecdotal one, suggesting a greater truth: freedom of movement had given us hard-working nurses in the NHS who we've turned our back on, and now we have a shortage. Seems rather pointless and self-harming to me, for you it is worthwhile for the greater good.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Well, with respect, both you and I know what they think. It will be exactly the same as in the first referendum. Some of them will support leaving the EU, most will want to remain. That was true for all (non-UKIP) parties in the 2016 referendum, and MP's from both sides were free to campaign how they wanted. I don't expect campaigning during a second referendum to be whipped one way or the other.

If we want to engage in idle speculation, one would assume the opposition leaders will support leaving with the deal as opposed to remain, although as the deal will be quite soft many of them may just leave the process altogether. The government on their part will I imagine be riven by factions, with some of them deciding they had got a good deal and wanting to support it, and many, including the coalition partners, adamant we should Remain. But thats all hypothetical, and as I postulate above, doesn't really matter, because its the 35 million of us that will decide.

I will also point out that the Cameron government legislated for the first referendum, despite the prime minister saying he wanted to Remain. It didn't stop Leave voters voting for the Tories on the basis that they will get a referendum.

This is exactly the same here, a Corbyn government will give us a second referendum, and I will vote for them on that basis.

What the Labour Party is actually proposing is exactly what the first referendum was claimed to be by the Leave campaign up until the referendum. A Single Market/Customs Union deal v Remain.



Before, immediately after the referendum various Leave politicians (Farage, Johnson, ERG etc) ignored the whole Leave campaign and started redefining what 'Leave' meant for them.

Unless any Leave supporter can point out anywhere in the Leave campaign, where the choices of 'no deal' or 'Border in the Irish Sea' were proposed

 

[Two Professors]

Europeans are white? Are you sure about that?
Where does it say they get priority? It is easier for work regulations not having to get visas but nowhere does it say they get priority in the interviews.

Have you seen any non-whites in the EU Commission?EU citizens always get job priority over non-EU,hence so many Asian Brexit voters.

 

[Two Professors]

Any news on the massive pay packets of Tory £££ that the Trade Envoys receive yet?Just asking for HWT's sake,as he seemed to show a flicker of interest before vanishing behind his ignore button again.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Have you seen any non-whites in the EU Commission?EU citizens always get job priority over non-EU,hence so many Asian Brexit voters.

True - whats your point here? There are undeniable tensions between white and Asian communities in many parts of the UK - usually strong Leave areas - and we're going to solve that by INCREASING Asian immigration? One of the reasons I'm an unrepentant remainer.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Have you seen any non-whites in the EU Commission?EU citizens always get job priority over non-EU,hence so many Asian Brexit voters.

Quoting Theresa May who oversaw the Windrush landing cards destruction, created the hostile environment at the Home Office.

What evidence do you have that EU doctors and nurses get priority at interviews for the NHS vacancies?

 

[KZNSeagull]

Well, with respect, both you and I know what they think. It will be exactly the same as in the first referendum. Some of them will support leaving the EU, most will want to remain. That was true for all (non-UKIP) parties in the 2016 referendum, and MP's from both sides were free to campaign how they wanted. I don't expect campaigning during a second referendum to be whipped one way or the other.

If we want to engage in idle speculation, one would assume the opposition leaders will support leaving with the deal as opposed to remain, although as the deal will be quite soft many of them may just leave the process altogether. The government on their part will I imagine be riven by factions, with some of them deciding they had got a good deal and wanting to support it, and many, including the coalition partners, adamant we should Remain. But thats all hypothetical, and as I postulate above, doesn't really matter, because its the 35 million of us that will decide.

I will also point out that the Cameron government legislated for the first referendum, despite the prime minister saying he wanted to Remain. It didn't stop Leave voters voting for the Tories on the basis that they will get a referendum.

This is exactly the same here, a Corbyn government will give us a second referendum, and I will vote for them on that basis.

What Labour Party MP's think is irrelevant. As they keep telling us, they are a democratic party and it is the members who decide policy. So when are they going to decide? Before or after their negotiations? I would have thought that this was rather important.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

What Labour Party MP's think is irrelevant. As they keep telling us, they are a democratic party and it is the members who decide policy. So when are they going to decide? Before or after their negotiations? I would have thought that this was rather important.

I guess we could indeed have the remarkable spectacle of Labour supporting the Leave option in the hypothetical referendum and the Tories supporting the Remain option, on the grounds that staying in the single market isn't Leaving.

But please, it doesn't matter to me which way they swing, in the same way that it didn't seem to matter to Leavers that the Tories were a Remain party when they offered a referendum.

I just don't think this is a relevant talking point, however much Johnson fanboys want to push it. Say Labour came out as a party in support of Leave, but offering a confirmatory referendum? I would still vote for them, no problem. Its the referendum that matters.

 

[KZNSeagull]

I guess we could indeed have the remarkable spectacle of Labour supporting the Leave option in the hypothetical referendum and the Tories supporting the Remain option, on the grounds that staying in the single market isn't Leaving.

But please, it doesn't matter to me which way they swing, in the same way that it didn't seem to matter to Leavers that the Tories were a Remain party when they offered a referendum.

I just don't think this is a relevant talking point, however much Johnson fanboys want to push it. Say Labour came out as a party in support of Leave, but offering a confirmatory referendum? I would still vote for them, no problem. Its the referendum that matters.

I am not a Johnson fanboy. I just want clarity on whether the Labour Party support Brexit or not. At the moment they don't know and are not in any hurry to make a decision.

 

[Bodian]

Have Labour decided whether they will support remain or leave in a second referendum yet? That is the bit that is unclear. Laura Pidcock says that they have to have a special conference about it, but did not say when that would be.

Why is it important that we know now what Labour might support in a future referendum? That has no bearing whatsoever on the matter - and I cannot understand why the media keep on about it. The important aspect is that Labour will hold another referendum for the people to decide. As seen in the 2016 referendum, it really doesn't matter what the political parties support during a referendum, it is what the people say.

So - could you explain why you think that whether Labour supporting remain or leave in a second referendum has any significance to this general election?

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

I am not a Johnson fanboy. I just want clarity on whether the Labour Party support Brexit or not. At the moment they don't know and are not in any hurry to make a decision.

would it affect your vote? Honestly?

 

[hans kraay fan club]

I am not a Johnson fanboy. I just want clarity on whether the Labour Party support Brexit or not. At the moment they don't know and are not in any hurry to make a decision.

As the others have said, the promise of a confirmatory vote is more important than their preferred outcome OF that vote.

I'd actually go further, and ask WHY they even need to HAVE a preferred outcome? Their policy is to strike the best possible deal, then allow the people to decide between that or Remain. Why is that not okay?

 

[Gwylan]

I'd actually go further, and ask WHY they even need to HAVE a preferred outcome? Their policy is to strike the best possible deal, then allow the people to decide between that or Remain.

Which is precisely what Corbyn has said

 

[KZNSeagull]

As the others have said, the promise of a confirmatory vote is more important than their preferred outcome OF that vote.

I'd actually go further, and ask WHY they even need to HAVE a preferred outcome? Their policy is to strike the best possible deal, then allow the people to decide between that or Remain. Why is that not okay?

Is it not a bit odd that they would negotiate with a third party without knowing what their preferred outcome would be? Isn't that partially how the Tories got into such a mess? Similarly, how will they negotiate the best possible deal if they already know that their preferred outcome is Remain?

 

[KZNSeagull]

would it affect your vote? Honestly?

No.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Why is it important that we know now what Labour might support in a future referendum? That has no bearing whatsoever on the matter - and I cannot understand why the media keep on about it. The important aspect is that Labour will hold another referendum for the people to decide. As seen in the 2016 referendum, it really doesn't matter what the political parties support during a referendum, it is what the people say.

So - could you explain why you think that whether Labour supporting remain or leave in a second referendum has any significance to this general election?

Ask any Labour leave supporter if they think it is important. I suspect that they might. Also taking a position on something shows leadership and resolution, something that Corbyn could do with showing a bit more of. Asking others to make the decision for you is a cop out imo.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

No.

Thank you. Me neither.

Ask any Labour leave supporter if they think it is important. I suspect that they might. Also taking a position on something shows leadership and resolution, something that Corbyn could do with showing a bit more of. Asking others to make the decision for you is a cop out imo.

But is literally the opinion of every Leave voter everywhere. Respect the Referendum Result! Serve the Will of the People!

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I am not a Johnson fanboy. I just want clarity on whether the Labour Party support Brexit or not. At the moment they don't know and are not in any hurry to make a decision.

They have been paying lip service to honour the referendum result because (approx) 60% of Labour constituencies voted to Leave but they have been backtracking on their promises and manifesto commitments for some time. As for any future referendum ... the vast majority of Labour members back Remain, the vast majority of Labour MP's back Remain, most people in the Shadow cabinet back Remain so I would say it's virtually certain they would support Remain (possibly even while claiming they weren't)

By any reasonable analysis, Labour's Brexit policy is an absolute farce. Negotiate a 'fantastic' new 3rd deal ... then campaign against it offering the country a choice of Labours Super Soft Brexit or Remain. Obviously undemocratic loons would think that's fine but I'm guessing the vast majority of Leave voters and plenty of democratic Remainers would be outraged .... rightly so.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Thank you. Me neither.



But is literally the opinion of every Leave voter everywhere. Respect the Referendum Result! Serve the Will of the People!

I thought you would like that.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

They have been paying lip service to honour the referendum result because (approx) 60% of Labour constituencies voted to Leave but they have been backtracking on their promises and manifesto commitments for some time. As for any future referendum ... the vast majority of Labour members back Remain, the vast majority of Labour MP's back Remain, most people in the Shadow cabinet back Remain so I would say it's virtually certain they would support Remain (possibly even while claiming they weren't)

By any reasonable analysis, Labour's Brexit policy is an absolute farce. Negotiate a 'fantastic' new 3rd deal ... then campaign against it offering the country a choice of Labours Super Soft Brexit or Remain. Obviously undemocratic loons would think that's fine but I'm guessing the vast majority of Leave voters and plenty of democratic Remainers would be outraged .... rightly so.

That is far from a 'reasonable analysis'. What they are saying is that (even if they do want to Remain - and Corbyn absolutely doesn't, btw) they'll fight to get the best deal possible, for those who do choose to vote Leave.