Some hard truths for the UKIP supporters...

[Nibble]

I think what this thread illustrates, and quite graphically so, is that supporters of UKIP get a flavour of the argument but cannot get the substance of it. Which they will never do for one simple reason, UKIP are a reactionary party. They have no substance, they merely give a flavour of an argument. This is why I regard them as fools. Fools for reacting to the Conservative and Tory rhetoric. They see many things they don't like in the mainstream parties, as I do, but their reaction is to turn to pseudo politics, people who dabble in policy, people who dabble in party politics but are without substance. It's a natural reaction but shows perfectly that UKIP supporters don't actually have any ideas of their own. If they did they would not take on board the flimsy ideals of UKIP, they would question whether they are reacting to what they don't like. In other words, are they being pulled by UKIP or are they being pushed towards UKIP by the main political parties?

History has shown us many times over and continues to do so that any political entity that starts off on the foot of a stance against immigration do not get more moderate once they believe they have put in motion the cogs of their beliefs, in fact quite the opposite. Once they attain power this only serves to reinforce their belief that immigration is bad and they see their voting into power as an affirmation of their beliefs. And these are beliefs rather than solid policies. UKIP may seem benign at present but they are a dangerous party to subscribe to.

I regard UKIP supporters as fools, not as an argument for Labour, the left or Conservatives, the right, but as a singular argument against the water weak, and it is weak, stance of UKIP. I say the word fool in it's truest sense. I don't mean is as an insult, I mean that I believe you have been fooled.

Supporting UKIP is an "any port in a storm" stance to take and it's not defendable. It's understandable, it's almost, almost explainable but it is most certainly not an intelligent stance to take. Quite the opposite. They are a reactionary group. That may be fine while they are reacting against something you dislike. The day will come when they start to react against things you may care about, which they will as all reactionary groups that have attained any modicum of power or influence, I hope you have the same conviction against them as you do for them.

 

[daveinprague]

I just love the fact that the UKIPs ethnic public face, and leader of the UKIP youth, has left the party, citing racism as the reason, and NSC UKIP supporters, cant accept that.
The usual rightwing explanation.......its all somebody elses fault.

 

[Nibble]

Don't be under the illusion for a minute that UKIP, if by some remote possibility got into any kind of meaningful power would stop at the idea of controlled immigration. They have chosen their stance for a reason. These are inherently racist people. You give them an inch they will take a mile.

We live in a democracy therefore we never really feel the need for revolution as we know every 4 years we can "make a change". The unfortunate side effect of not feeling we have a right to revolution, but also feeling the need for it means some of us will, usually as an election comes to mind, start to turn to extreme and unsound ideas. This time round it's UKIP. Just to voice an opinion. Like I said previously, that I perfectly understandable but don't be under the illusion that UKIP will solve that problem. It won't, it can't and nor should it.

 

[Nibble]

I won't have the country I love turned into some ridiculous racial battle ground by nonsense like UKIP.

 

[brighton fella]

I won't have the country I love turned into some ridiculous racial battle ground by nonsense like UKIP.

its you who is bringing racism in to the mix, look who's scaremongering now.

 

[cunning fergus]

Well, I like this definition...

"With half a decade’s hindsight, it is clear the crisis had multiple causes. The most obvious is the financiers themselves—especially the irrationally exuberant Anglo-Saxon sort, who claimed to have found a way to banish risk when in fact they had simply lost track of it. Central bankers and other regulators also bear blame, for it was they who tolerated this folly. The macroeconomic backdrop was important, too. The “Great Moderation”—years of low inflation and stable growth—fostered complacency and risk-taking. A “savings glut” in Asia pushed down global interest rates. Some research also implicates European banks, which borrowed greedily in American money markets before the crisis and used the funds to buy dodgy securities. All these factors came together to foster a surge of debt in what seemed to have become a less risky world."

We are talking about Spain.

Sure, it was impacted with regard to the wider macro economic failures of banks and politicans, however that does not sum up the causes for Spain.

Do you think that Spain's entry into the eurozone has anything to do with its crisis?

It is certainly a significant factor why unemployment is now so high and why they are f*cked for the forseeable future.

Still on the other hand you will be pleased to note that the hard pressed taxpayers in the UK are helping Spain, as we are borrowing money that the Spanish Govt can't and then lending that money to the IMF.

What a game eh.................better we lend it to the Spainish than spend it on say our pensioners.

 

[Hamilton]

We are talking about Spain.

Sure, it was impacted with regard to the wider macro economic failures of banks and politicans, however that does not sum up the causes for Spain.

Do you think that Spain's entry into the eurozone has anything to do with its crisis?

It is certainly a significant factor why unemployment is now so high and why they are f*cked for the forseeable future.

Still on the other hand you will be pleased to note that the hard pressed taxpayers in the UK are helping Spain, as we are borrowing money that the Spanish Govt can't and then lending that money to the IMF.

What a game eh.................better we lend it to the Spainish than spend it on say our pensioners.

Do you think we benefit from a strong Eurozone? What would be the benefit to the UK of Spain going bust? Would it be good? Would it help improve our economy so that we'd have more money to spend on our older people (or younger people for that matter?)

 

[brighton fella]

We are talking about Spain.

Sure, it was impacted with regard to the wider macro economic failures of banks and politicans, however that does not sum up the causes for Spain.

Do you think that Spain's entry into the eurozone has anything to do with its crisis?

It is certainly a significant factor why unemployment is now so high and why they are f*cked for the forseeable future.

Still on the other hand you will be pleased to note that the hard pressed taxpayers in the UK are helping Spain, as we are borrowing money that the Spanish Govt can't and then lending that money to the IMF.

What a game eh.................better we lend it to the Spainish than spend it on say our pensioners.

think you'll find the hard pressed taxpayers in the UK are propping up a few more countries other than just spain. the name of the game is to screw over the UK so much that it becomes beholden to the EU and the IMF, the deeper we are pushed in the harder it is to escape. seems both the EU and the IMF are part of the same corrupt agenda.

 

[Nibble]

its you who is bringing racism in to the mix, look who's scaremongering now.

Not a bit of it. Absolutely not. Don't allow yourself to be so naïve as to believe that if UKIP achieved what they want they would become moderate and reasonabl. They are a racist, yes a RACIST organisation who will continue to attempt to enforce their version of racism on Britain and will become more fervently racist the more they are placated by fools like you.

I say this as not only an owner of British historically significant land but as a certified, scrutinable guardian of English Heritage. I would no more see that land or heritage taken by Christians or Muslims than I would Martians but I have yet to see any significant threat to that heritage.

To simplify, which I believe you require, by setting any kind of argument out in favour of UKIP you only leave yourself with the choice of either declaring yourself as a racist or a fool. It's up to you but there is no other reasonable option I'm afraid.

 

[cunning fergus]

Do you think we benefit from a strong Eurozone? What would be the benefit to the UK of Spain going bust? Would it be good? Would it help improve our economy so that we'd have more money to spend on our older people (or younger people for that matter?)

Well that point is moot. First and foremost has being in the Eurozone been of benefit to Spain? I would argue not, and given its current plight (as with others) the likelihood of a strong EZ are remote. The solution from the EU is that more integration of EZ countries economies and political constructs is needed.

Notwithstanding the unknown consequences that such integration may have in these countries, for those outside the EZ it is definitely not a forgone conclusion that the new integrated EZ (strong or otherwise) will ultimately benefit them.

The irony here is that you could make the same argument of the "greater good" to bailing out the banks et al, however at some point you have to accept you are throwing good money after bad.

Furthermore, following the crisis no one is willing to trust bankers hence there has been manifest changes to banks and regulation. Why is it then that I should trust the same politicians and the political system that was in place that in Europe anyway was part of the catastrophe?

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

I dont think its suspicious...I find people looking for other reasons, apart from the reasons she has stated suspicious frankly.

The poster girl has gone, citing racism...

The poster boy has gone, for racism...


But, im sure there are other reasons haha...

haha is that your best efforts you don't live here yet dismiss UKIP out of hand ,you haven't got a clue about the "feel" in this country..................WHAT A MUPPET
regards
DR

 

[brighton fella]

Not a bit of it. Absolutely not. Don't allow yourself to be so naïve as to believe that if UKIP achieved what they want they would become moderate and reasonabl. They are a racist, yes a RACIST organisation who will continue to attempt to enforce their version of racism on Britain and will become more fervently racist the more they are placated by fools like you.

I say this as not only an owner of British historically significant land but as a certified, scrutinable guardian of English Heritage. I would no more see that land or heritage taken by Christians or Muslims than I would Martians but I have yet to see any significant threat to that heritage.

To simplify, which I believe you require, by setting any kind of argument out in favour of UKIP you only leave yourself with the choice of either declaring yourself as a racist or a fool. It's up to you but there is no other reasonable option I'm afraid.

it always pays to research something vigorously yet carefully before you go criticizing something, whereas you have the right to criticize UKIP i too have the right to criticize the EU.. and what I found in my research of the EU was that 90% of its represented bureaucrats all share one thing in common and that thing is "communism"..that is nearly all if you don't mind!! so its hardly surprising when your nations been promised a referendum on Europe that you don't get one and if you do manage to get one your vote will only go the way that the EU wants it to go. now I don't know whether or not you studied history in your schooling years but if you did you'd be correct to think that communism only breeds the kind of radical uprisings you fear the most hence the wide spread nationalism we currently see regrouping all over Europe today. now no doubt this European dream was intentionally based upon good and nothing less but its lead to nothing other than fuelled hatred & aggression and discontent amongst its many nationalists, we see history repeating itself all over again.. surely this itself should tell you enough to rethink your views again? are you familiar with NEW WORLD ORDER.. try researching that one and then say if that don't shift any of your views because that will give you a far better understanding of the EU and how its run and what its true agenda really is.
UKIP on the other hand are far from being a racist and radical party like you and the establishment/ media so love to portray them as being.. if they were don't you think they would of considered striking up some sort of deal with marine le pen & geert wilders or would have atleast encouraged something along them lines instead of having nothing to do with any such groups or others who they consider over extreme. what they really are about & want is to re knew the bond Britain once had with its commonwealth member states and start to re address a much better relationship with them encouraging more prosperous trade deals which would only benefit our country and its people inside. to be honest im fed up to the tooth with having to explain why UKIP are not a racist party..i suggest to you do a required amount of research necessary and unless your plain right ignorant or brain dead then you'll grasp the fundamental basics of what they are really about and not what the media ect want you to believe them to be.

finally, unfortunately for you & your precious bit of land if the EU ever get their way will be used for such purposes as to bail out the massive debt the EU carries with it..and im not joking either. that my friend is communism at its best, now if your in favour of that kind of stuff then I wish you all the very best of luck meanwhile i'll be sticking with a party that represents my needs and who fights against such extreme motives.

 

[pastafarian]

but don't be under the illusion that UKIP will solve that problem. It won't, it can't and nor should it.

You identify there is a problem(immigration) yet dont want it solved ......that is simply madness!
Your prejudices are clouding your judgement.

 

[Nibble]

it always pays to research something vigorously yet carefully before you go criticizing something, whereas you have the right to criticize UKIP i too have the right to criticize the EU.. and what I found in my research of the EU was that 90% of its represented bureaucrats all share one thing in common and that thing is "communism"..that is nearly all if you don't mind!! so its hardly surprising when your nations been promised a referendum on Europe that you don't get one and if you do manage to get one your vote will only go the way that the EU wants it to go. now I don't know whether or not you studied history in your schooling years but if you did you'd be correct to think that communism only breeds the kind of radical uprisings you fear the most hence the wide spread nationalism we currently see regrouping all over Europe today. now no doubt this European dream was intentionally based upon good and nothing less but its lead to nothing other than fuelled hatred & aggression and discontent amongst its many nationalists, we see history repeating itself all over again.. surely this itself should tell you enough to rethink your views again? are you familiar with NEW WORLD ORDER.. try researching that one and then say if that don't shift any of your views because that will give you a far better understanding of the EU and how its run and what its true agenda really is.
UKIP on the other hand are far from being a racist and radical party like you and the establishment/ media so love to portray them as being.. if they were don't you think they would of considered striking up some sort of deal with marine le pen & geert wilders or would have atleast encouraged something along them lines instead of having nothing to do with any such groups or others who they consider over extreme. what they really are about & want is to re knew the bond Britain once had with its commonwealth member states and start to re address a much better relationship with them encouraging more prosperous trade deals which would only benefit our country and its people inside. to be honest im fed up to the tooth with having to explain why UKIP are not a racist party..i suggest to you do a required amount of research necessary and unless your plain right ignorant or brain dead then you'll grasp the fundamental basics of what they are really about and not what the media ect want you to believe them to be.

finally, unfortunately for you & your precious bit of land if the EU ever get their way will be used for such purposes as to bail out the massive debt the EU carries with it..and im not joking either. that my friend is communism at its best, now if your in favour of that kind of stuff then I wish you all the very best of luck meanwhile i'll be sticking with a party that represents my needs and who fights against such extreme motives.

Sorry, you lost all credit with your new world order nonsense.

 

[Nibble]

You identify there is a problem(immigration) yet dont want it solved ......that is simply madness!
Your prejudices are clouding your judgement.

I don't believe immigration is a problem actually. You lot do. There certainly are deep problems with this country, we have people using food banks for Pete's sakes but UKIP certainly aren't the solution. They just like to rinse European tax payers money. Which they admit they do and do so in return for, again self admittedly, barely any work.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I don't believe immigration is a problem actually. You lot do. There certainly are deep problems with this country, we have people using food banks for Pete's sakes but UKIP certainly aren't the solution. They just like to rinse European tax payers money. Which they admit they do and do so in return for, again self admittedly, barely any work.

You don't believe immigration is a problem? Have you seen what is going on in Europe? This is just Italy, it doesn't include other entry points in to the EU.
http://www.independent.com.mt/articles/2014-05-15/news/823-increase-in-illegal-immigration-to-italy-5008818177/
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/09/4000-immigrants-italy-boat-48-hours-eu-help
http://news.yahoo.com/migrant-boat-sinks-off-italy-several-dead-001555733.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-26842068

 

[Nibble]

You don't believe immigration is a problem? Have you seen what is going on in Europe? This is just Italy, it doesn't include other entry points in to the EU.
http://www.independent.com.mt/articles/2014-05-15/news/823-increase-in-illegal-immigration-to-italy-5008818177/
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/09/4000-immigrants-italy-boat-48-hours-eu-help
http://news.yahoo.com/migrant-boat-sinks-off-italy-several-dead-001555733.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-26842068

I tend to look at facts and figures not scaremongering. If you don't like little brown people just say.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I tend to look at facts and figures not scaremongering. If you don't like little brown people just say.

So even though it is written by credible news sources it is still scaremongering. Not enough there is already a crisis in the EU zone. I give up, I really do.

 

[Nibble]

So even though it is written by credible news sources it is still scaremongering. Not enough there is already a crisis in the EU zone. I give up, I really do.

Me too. It's all so boring. I'm going back to the pub threads.

 

[El Presidente]

Well that point is moot. First and foremost has being in the Eurozone been of benefit to Spain? I would argue not, and given its current plight (as with others) the likelihood of a strong EZ are remote. The solution from the EU is that more integration of EZ countries economies and political constructs is needed.

Notwithstanding the unknown consequences that such integration may have in these countries, for those outside the EZ it is definitely not a forgone conclusion that the new integrated EZ (strong or otherwise) will ultimately benefit them.

The irony here is that you could make the same argument of the "greater good" to bailing out the banks et al, however at some point you have to accept you are throwing good money after bad.

Furthermore, following the crisis no one is willing to trust bankers hence there has been manifest changes to banks and regulation. Why is it then that I should trust the same politicians and the political system that was in place that in Europe anyway was part of the catastrophe?

Why do you think the CBI is in favour of EU membership?