[Albion] Security at Wembley last night .... Non existent

[nwgull]

You guess wrong. You just put forward the idea that authorities should not be questioned, even by eyewitnesses. Thought it should be highlighted that authorities can get things wrong, Palace at the turnstiles springs to mind amongst others.

That was odd, wasn't it? A large number of ticketless Palace fans clearly did storm one of the fire exits that night, as evidenced by the CCTV, so why did the police feel the need to make up such a strange lie about all the weapons they found?

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Out of interest, what agendas and from whom?

31 million watched the match in this country, so it certainly was a minority who acted like prize bellends. Inside the stadium it was mixed, some areas family friendly, others a shambolic mess.

I agree on both counts. However, some of the posters who frequent the political/bearpit threads never miss an opportunity to draw conclusions that fit their politics. We’ve had the pantomime booing of national anthems (that happens all over Europe), booing of taking the knee (when a lot worse happens in Europe) and now we have vilification of football fans because of the behaviour of a minority of louts. Suddenly people who are keen to point out media agendas elsewhere are going with the flow because they are ‘embarrassed to be English.’ It’s just an extension of a long running thread in the Bearpit.

 

[Bry Nylon]

Having seen some of the footage, I find myself conflicted.

I would never condone or participate in mindless violence - but then again I would never try to break into a football stadium and trash the occasion for those that have paid to be there and make people worry for their safety and that of their kids etc. The level of selfishness and entitlement of those people trying to rush the stadium is off the scale.

So was I bothered when I saw some of them getting a good hiding from ticket holders on the concourse? No. In fact I was quite pleased and thought their sudden and unexpected taste of swift justice served them right and frankly they can have very little complaint. What did they expect? I can't imagine they will be so quick to try and jib their way into a sold out match in the future.

Not sure if this makes me part of the problem, a hypocrite or if it's just a normal reaction.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

So just shrug shoulders, don't review any security procedures, turn a blind eye, just an acceptable consequence of a big game. Heads really do need a wobble.

Err, no. Review security footage and make arrests. Lots of them. Make examples. Even better might have been to have policed these gatherings in the first place. The police have a problem because they are criticized on many occasions for doing their job and on others for not doing it. I am very much of the latter view.

 

[nwgull]

Having seen some of the footage, I find myself conflicted.

I would never condone or participate in mindless violence - but then again I would never try to break into a football stadium and trash the occasion for those that have paid to be there and make people worry for their safety and that of their kids etc. The level of selfishness and entitlement of those people trying to rush the stadium is off the scale.

So was I bothered when I saw some of them getting a good hiding from ticket holders on the concourse? No. In fact I was quite pleased and thought their sudden and unexpected taste of swift justice served them right and frankly they can have very little complaint. What did they expect? I can't imagine they will be so quick to try and jib their way into a sold out match in the future.

Not sure if this makes me part of the problem, a hypocrite or if it's just a normal reaction.

I certainly wasn't bothered about people getting a bit of a kicking for breaking in - they were asking for it and looked close to causing a serious crush from some of the stuff I've seen. Everyone that did receive a slap walked (or ran) away apart from the bloke that eventually got manhandled out by the stewards with the help of a fan. I received worse shoeings when I've got myself on the wrong side at the bottom of a ruck in rugby.

 

[goldstoneseagull]

Having seen some of the footage, I find myself conflicted.

I would never condone or participate in mindless violence - but then again I would never try to break into a football stadium and trash the occasion for those that have paid to be there and make people worry for their safety and that of their kids etc. The level of selfishness and entitlement of those people trying to rush the stadium is off the scale.

So was I bothered when I saw some of them getting a good hiding from ticket holders on the concourse? No. In fact I was quite pleased and thought their sudden and unexpected taste of swift justice served them right and frankly they can have very little complaint. What did they expect? I can't imagine they will be so quick to try and jib their way into a sold out match in the future.

Not sure if this makes me part of the problem, a hypocrite or if it's just a normal reaction.

You're not the only one who thinks like this but it's not their job ie to act as vigilante law enforcement. I don't dispute everyone was kicked (from all races) but the footage we have all seen shows an Asian man being beaten severely and kicked in the head whilst down, which is undeniably a racist attack by opportunist thugs. You don't kick the s*** out of someone because they have unlawfully attained access to a football match- it's the equivalent of saying you would run someone down because they have cut you up in a traffic queue. The policing of the whole situation (given the same situation had occurred throughout the tournament) was frankly ridiculous.

 

[Justice]

Err, no. Review security footage and make arrests. Lots of them. Make examples. Even better might have been to have policed these gatherings in the first place. The police have a problem because they are criticized on many occasions for doing their job and on others for not doing it. I am very much of the latter view.

When it comes to hostile mobs the new approach is to let in play out and make arrests later, can you imagine the explosion and risk to injury on both sides if the OB had waded in.

 

[essbee1]

The issue for me and something I felt for a long time and many away matches, stewards and security get paid virtually
nothing to be there. They should be paid more. Would you bother getting into brawls or handling serious disorder if you knew you
could get hurt badly, when you're being paid so poorly? I wouldn't.

 

[nwgull]

The issue for me and something I felt for a long time and many away matches, stewards and security get paid virtually
nothing to be there. They should be paid more. Would you bother getting into brawls or handling serious disorder if you knew you
could get hurt badly, when you're being paid so poorly? I wouldn't.

When it comes to stewarding at the Amex, my observation has been that there are two types: There's one lot that are there to do general steward stuff (in yellow high-viz I think) and then there's a smaller number (orange hi-viz??) that are generally very handy looking blokes who seem to deal with any crowd behaviour issues. My assumption was that the 2nd group were employees of security firms and paid appropriately more than the stewards.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

You guess wrong. You just put forward the idea that authorities should not be questioned, even by eyewitnesses. Thought it should be highlighted that authorities can get things wrong, Palace at the turnstiles springs to mind amongst others.

What are you on about? I never 'put forward the idea that authorities should not be questioned, even by eyewitnesses'

Here is what I said typed "I took that on board as well as follow up statements as well as everything else when deciding (on balance) who and what to believe happened."

I am not saying anyone is beyond question, merely (and in the context of the OP) suggesting I have made a measured and considered decision which is based on balance. You really are a total muppet at times.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

When it comes to hostile mobs the new approach is to let in play out and make arrests later, can you imagine the explosion and risk to injury on both sides if the OB had waded in.

I appreciate that but as a strategy it’s not much help to the immediate victims. It’s also not much use in the age of social media. The images of yobs on the rampage resonate much more than a list of names several weeks later.

 

[wellquickwoody]

You're not the only one who thinks like this but it's not their job ie to act as vigilante law enforcement. I don't dispute everyone was kicked (from all races) but the footage we have all seen shows an Asian man being beaten severely and kicked in the head whilst down, which is undeniably a racist attack by opportunist thugs. You don't kick the s*** out of someone because they have unlawfully attained access to a football match- it's the equivalent of saying you would run someone down because they have cut you up in a traffic queue. The policing of the whole situation (given the same situation had occurred throughout the tournament) was frankly ridiculous.

An expert on genetics and politics huh?

Chap could have been ‘Asian’, but maybe Arab, or Greek, or Italian, or Native American perhaps? And an undeniably ‘racist’ attack? Only if you are a mind reader. Everything that is wrong with the ‘looking to be offended’.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

You may be mistaken as I've not seen anything on this thread since following it from yesterday morning. Maybe I am, in which case could you point me to it.

I cant be arsed to go searching for your straw-man. I read something about some Italians being duffed up over a seat, someone recording it on a go-pro and going to the stewards and/or police. Maybe it was on here, maybe another thread, maybe elsewhere. Either way, it does not deteact from the general gist of my oriignal post.

 

[Giraffe]

So I'll give you my first hand account of someone that was actually there, who has been to been to England games home and away for decades and is a regular away fan of the Albion fan.

Outside of Wembley was carnage.

We went to the Germany and Denmark game and it was similar but the numbers were far less. Whilst people were congregating near the top of Wembley Way for the earlier games the pathway to the stadium was still clear. On Sunday it was fully blocked and the police were not moving anyone on. At the Germany game I got told to move just for stopping and taking a photo. There had clearly been a change of policy which allowed this to happen.

What this meant was thousands of boozed up idiots (pick a ruder name) were just on the lash with little or no concern for those around them. I've seen this regularly on trips but the difference was this was thousands, not hundreds. What became VERY clear was many had the intent to break through the initial Covid and ticket checks and then try and get in the stadium. We witnessed hundreds running up entry 2 pushing one or stewards to the ground as they went. The stadium PA (outside) announced the stadium was going in to lockdown. No one could enter the initial phase at that point for a while. As a result the queues piled up and more chaos ensued. Beer cans and bottled were being thrown randomly into crowds of legitimate ticket holders waiting to get up the stairs.

We waited a little bit but decided to get into the stadium as soon as we could as we could see it getting worse. It did. In the covid check area, several guys shoved past us and the steward, no check. We had to be very careful showing our covid passports to the steward as we feared them nicking our mobiles. Next stage was a steward activating tickets, again the same thing. More people barging past.

When we finally got to the turnstiles we were amazed at the lack of stewards. one for about ten entrances on the outside. Not a single policeman. We had witnessed loads getting through turnstile behind others for the Germany game so assumed they would increase security. They didn't.

We finally got in about 6-6.15pm. Then watched from inside as repeatedly people came through trying it on behind someone else. Some got spotted, others didn't. But those that got spotted just got taken outside where presumably they then just tried it again and again.

Then at one point one of the doors for disabled access was forced open and up to a hundred spilled in. Fighting happened as fans who had a ticket decided they'd had enough of this and waded in. Stewards were completely and utterly overwhelmed.

So we went to our seats. No problem there. But by the time the game started every stairway in the lower tier behind the goal appeared rammed. Completely rammed. I assumed (as often happens at away games) that the stewards would patrol up and down and move these people. I didn't see this happen once. I'm a grown man, but if I had had a child with me it would have been very scary indeed.

I would say the stadium in the lower tier was full to capacity or beyond. I wouldn't be surprised if there was 80,000 people in that stadium. Very few gaps, nearly all of which were middle tier.

Lessons need to be learned, most of which is bloody obvious, but the essence is if you're going to let people that close to the stadium without tickets and let them drink for as long as they want you will have a problem, particularly if you leave the stewarding of this to stewards who are clearly out of their depth and not trained to deal with that situation. I felt very sorry for them.

 

[Horsham Gull]

UEFA putting their foot down

Charges against The English Football Association:

• Invasion of the field of play by its supporters - Article 16(2)(a) of the UEFA Disciplinary Regulations (DR)

• Throwing of objects by its supporters - Article 16(2)(b) DR

• Disturbance caused by its supporters during the national anthem - Article 16(2)(g) DR

• Lighting of a firework by its supporters - Article 16(2)(c) DR

 

[KeegansHairPiece]

incredible the wetting of pants for a few isolated non entity things in a crowd of hundreds of thousands.

heads need to be wobbled etc

Does [MENTION=3734]Giraffe[/MENTION]'s head need a wobble for a few isolated non entity things?

So I'll give you my first hand account of someone that was actually there, who has been to been to England games home and away for decades and is a regular away fan of the Albion fan.

Outside of Wembley was carnage.

We went to the Germany and Denmark game and it was similar but the numbers were far less. Whilst people were congregating near the top of Wembley Way for the earlier games the pathway to the stadium was still clear. On Sunday it was fully blocked and the police were not moving anyone on. At the Germany game I got told to move just for stopping and taking a photo. There had clearly been a change of policy which allowed this to happen.

What this meant was thousands of boozed up idiots (pick a ruder name) were just on the lash with little or no concern for those around them. I've seen this regularly on trips but the difference was this was thousands, not hundreds. What became VERY clear was many had the intent to break through the initial Covid and ticket checks and then try and get in the stadium. We witnessed hundreds running up entry 2 pushing one or stewards to the ground as they went. The stadium PA (outside) announced the stadium was going in to lockdown. No one could enter the initial phase at that point for a while. As a result the queues piled up and more chaos ensued. Beer cans and bottled were being thrown randomly into crowds of legitimate ticket holders waiting to get up the stairs.

We waited a little bit but decided to get into the stadium as soon as we could as we could see it getting worse. It did. In the covid check area, several guys shoved past us and the steward, no check. We had to be very careful showing our covid passports to the steward as we feared them nicking our mobiles. Next stage was a steward activating tickets, again the same thing. More people barging past.

When we finally got to the turnstiles we were amazed at the lack of stewards. one for about ten entrances on the outside. Not a single policeman. We had witnessed loads getting through turnstile behind others for the Germany game so assumed they would increase security. They didn't.

We finally got in about 6-6.15pm. Then watched from inside as repeatedly people came through trying it on behind someone else. Some got spotted, others didn't. But those that got spotted just got taken outside where presumably they then just tried it again and again.

Then at one point one of the doors for disabled access was forced open and up to a hundred spilled in. Fighting happened as fans who had a ticket decided they'd had enough of this and waded in. Stewards were completely and utterly overwhelmed.

So we went to our seats. No problem there. But by the time the game started every stairway in the lower tier behind the goal appeared rammed. Completely rammed. I assumed (as often happens at away games) that the stewards would patrol up and down and move these people. I didn't see this happen once. I'm a grown man, but if I had had a child with me it would have been very scary indeed.

I would say the stadium in the lower tier was full to capacity or beyond. I wouldn't be surprised if there was 80,000 people in that stadium. Very few gaps, nearly all of which were middle tier.

Lessons need to be learned, most of which is bloody obvious, but the essence is if you're going to let people that close to the stadium without tickets and let them drink for as long as they want you will have a problem, particularly if you leave the stewarding of this to stewards who are clearly out of their depth and not trained to deal with that situation. I felt very sorry for them.

 

[timbha]

So I'll give you my first hand account of someone that was actually there, who has been to been to England games home and away for decades and is a regular away fan of the Albion fan.

Outside of Wembley was carnage.

We went to the Germany and Denmark game and it was similar but the numbers were far less. Whilst people were congregating near the top of Wembley Way for the earlier games the pathway to the stadium was still clear. On Sunday it was fully blocked and the police were not moving anyone on. At the Germany game I got told to move just for stopping and taking a photo. There had clearly been a change of policy which allowed this to happen.

What this meant was thousands of boozed up idiots (pick a ruder name) were just on the lash with little or no concern for those around them. I've seen this regularly on trips but the difference was this was thousands, not hundreds. What became VERY clear was many had the intent to break through the initial Covid and ticket checks and then try and get in the stadium. We witnessed hundreds running up entry 2 pushing one or stewards to the ground as they went. The stadium PA (outside) announced the stadium was going in to lockdown. No one could enter the initial phase at that point for a while. As a result the queues piled up and more chaos ensued. Beer cans and bottled were being thrown randomly into crowds of legitimate ticket holders waiting to get up the stairs.

We waited a little bit but decided to get into the stadium as soon as we could as we could see it getting worse. It did. In the covid check area, several guys shoved past us and the steward, no check. We had to be very careful showing our covid passports to the steward as we feared them nicking our mobiles. Next stage was a steward activating tickets, again the same thing. More people barging past.

When we finally got to the turnstiles we were amazed at the lack of stewards. one for about ten entrances on the outside. Not a single policeman. We had witnessed loads getting through turnstile behind others for the Germany game so assumed they would increase security. They didn't.

We finally got in about 6-6.15pm. Then watched from inside as repeatedly people came through trying it on behind someone else. Some got spotted, others didn't. But those that got spotted just got taken outside where presumably they then just tried it again and again.

Then at one point one of the doors for disabled access was forced open and up to a hundred spilled in. Fighting happened as fans who had a ticket decided they'd had enough of this and waded in. Stewards were completely and utterly overwhelmed.

So we went to our seats. No problem there. But by the time the game started every stairway in the lower tier behind the goal appeared rammed. Completely rammed. I assumed (as often happens at away games) that the stewards would patrol up and down and move these people. I didn't see this happen once. I'm a grown man, but if I had had a child with me it would have been very scary indeed.

I would say the stadium in the lower tier was full to capacity or beyond. I wouldn't be surprised if there was 80,000 people in that stadium. Very few gaps, nearly all of which were middle tier.

Lessons need to be learned, most of which is bloody obvious, but the essence is if you're going to let people that close to the stadium without tickets and let them drink for as long as they want you will have a problem, particularly if you leave the stewarding of this to stewards who are clearly out of their depth and not trained to deal with that situation. I felt very sorry for them.

Racial and social media stuff aside this considered account of events is the most disappointing aspect of the day. I’m not too bothered about the result now but I am angry about this.

Like it or not the only way we can hope to deal with such civil disturbances is to use either the army or professional bouncers/stewards and meet fire with fire. People without tickets should be allowed no where near the stadium entrances.

This was so predictable and thankfully will scupper our chances of hosting more big games for a long while. Sadly this country has a high number of jealous and entitled thugs.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

UEFA putting their foot down

Charges against The English Football Association:

• Invasion of the field of play by its supporters - Article 16(2)(a) of the UEFA Disciplinary Regulations (DR)

• Throwing of objects by its supporters - Article 16(2)(b) DR

• Disturbance caused by its supporters during the national anthem - Article 16(2)(g) DR

• Lighting of a firework by its supporters - Article 16(2)(c) DR

So, no charge for allowing ticketless fans into the stadium ? Absolutely ridiculous considering the history in this country. Those charges appear designed to deflect attention from the organizational shambles described on this thread by [MENTION=3734]Giraffe[/MENTION] and others.

 

[Clive Walker]

Racial and social media stuff aside this considered account of events is the most disappointing aspect of the day. I’m not too bothered about the result now but I am angry about this.

Like it or not the only way we can hope to deal with such civil disturbances is to use either the army or professional bouncers/stewards and meet fire with fire. People without tickets should be allowed no where near the stadium entrances.

This was so predictable and thankfully will scupper our chances of hosting more big games for a long while. Sadly this country has a high number of jealous and entitled thugs.

Agree with this.

Its beyond belief that a super modern stadium with the back drop of COVID regulations was allowed to be breached so easily. The whole pre/post game events are embarrassing and potentially dangerous.

My mate was there with his son and daughter hoping to see history. He took his son and daughter to the toilet only to return to his seats to see 10-15 yobs piled into his seating area. He couldn't move them and the stewards were unable to deal with t either. He'd paid £800+ for those tickets and the yobs I assume paid zero.

He took his distraught kids home in tears!

 

[Jovis]

So we went to our seats. No problem there. But by the time the game started every stairway in the lower tier behind the goal appeared rammed. Completely rammed. I assumed (as often happens at away games) that the stewards would patrol up and down and move these people. I didn't see this happen once. I'm a grown man, but if I had had a child with me it would have been very scary indeed.

I would say the stadium in the lower tier was full to capacity or beyond. I wouldn't be surprised if there was 80,000 people in that stadium. Very few gaps, nearly all of which were middle tier.

Lessons need to be learned, most of which is bloody obvious, but the essence is if you're going to let people that close to the stadium without tickets and let them drink for as long as they want you will have a problem, particularly if you leave the stewarding of this to stewards who are clearly out of their depth and not trained to deal with that situation. I felt very sorry for them.

This is consistent with my experience. I was there for the Denmark and Italy games with my kids aged 10 and 17 and I would have to think very hard about taking them to Wembley for a game of this magnitude again. Once in the (relative) safety of our seats I was really reluctant to let them venture back to the concourse until the game was over. Too many twats around paying no regard to kids and families. I’m just very grateful that my kids had the time of their lives and were largely oblivious to how close things came to getting very out of hand.