[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[peterward]

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To those of us who have relatives and friends in Ukraine, I want to wish you and yours the very best of luck should the worst happen. May they stay safe, whatever the outcome.

I fully concur my friend. Nobody wants this, just to live their lives in peace.

I frantically applied for another 2 year visit visa for the mother in law when the direction of travel was becoming apparent, got all sponsor docs together, paid an extra £280 for a 5 day priority service, mother in law travelled on 16 hour overnight train on 9th, applied on Thursday 10th Feb, then 16 hours back to Mariupol. I already had a flight booked for this Tuesday 22nd by Wizzair to Luton, but after applying when it went downhill quick and the UK advised people to get out, I assumed the visa would be done by last Thursday (5th working day) and booked another Ryanair flight for last Friday, but my mother in law would have needed to get on a train at 17:15 on thursday night to overnight from Mariupol to get the visa and nothing came through on Thursday, so lost the Ryanair flight money. Sods law visa was approved on Friday, but Visa application centre in Kyiv to collect passport is only open Mon-Fri.

I did think about sticking to the booked Tuesday flight, but again with all the intelliegence etc, "coming days" etc and the false flags, I just didnt want to risk it....plus the Tuesday one is fully flexible so I can change, refund or transfer it. So late last night we messaged mum in law and said to call us first thing this morning, if she was prepared to leave today. She just needed to find someone with a printer to print train,flight, UK Passenger locator forms - she agreed, she can hear the shelling right next to her and is scared. I

booked another Ryanair out of Kyiv tomorrow, takes off at 12:10pm our time. She caught the overnight train tonight and is on it, sleeping as I write.

Arrives in the morning, straight to the visa centre, get passport, then straight off to the airport to fly here.

All being well and barring Putin pulling trigger before tomorrow afternoon or Ryanair cancelling, she will be here tomorrow evening. Will use the Tuesday booking for a return, if/when it calms down.

Mrs is very stressed.

 

[peterward]

You are conflating a lot of different things here and getting most confused. Quoting Goering at the Nuremberg trials is an odd choice. A defeated fascist talking about tricking Germany into supporting war by using the Jews as a scapegoat. Is absolutely not what is happening today with Russia.

Nobody is being tricked by the West here. We have an aggressor who is trying to trick the world, a country about to be invaded so a maniac can save face and the West desperately trying to prevent all out war.

Then you have quoted Mohammed Ali regarding his refusal to fight in a futile war that was motivated largely by a paranoid US who didn't want another communist super power in the world. Again, this is not what is happening on the Russian/Ukraine border at the moment.

Both quotes have their merits in the right context, This is not the correct context. Of course wars have been fought for resources and wealth. Iraq being a recent example. Other wars have been fought in the defense of freedom and in the name of democracy such as WW2.

This situation would fall into the latter category. It's tempting to be binary about war and assign one motivation to all circumstances. That is naive and unhelpful.

fantastic post Clamp.

I can see why Putin doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO. However, whether Ukraine joins NATO or not is not up to Putin and it is not his place to march over the border and start killing and carpet bombing Ukranians.

Unfortunately he thinks it is his place.

He demands Russias security guarantees are met, all the while he has ridden roughshod over the security guarantees given to Ukraine in the Budapest memorandum of 1994 to give up its nuclear arsenal in exchange for protection of its sovereignty and borders, and Russia being one of the signatories with UK and US.

 

[dangull]

So clearly still a threat in some capacity then?

I'm sure the USA felt the same in the Cuban missile crisis?

 

[A1X]

I'm sure the USA felt the same in the Cuban missile crisis?

That’s your comparison? A situation which is not really in any way comparable?

 

[dangull]

That’s your comparison? A situation which is not really in any way comparable?

Yes it is. Being part of NATO means that USA nuclear weapons can be transferred to Ukraine and pointed at Moscow

 

[A1X]

Yes it is. Being part of NATO means that USA nuclear weapons can be transferred to Ukraine and pointed at Moscow

It’s not mandatory, however. And if the US were serious they’d be planting them all over the Baltic states which are a lot closer to the major centres of populated European Russia than Ukraine is.

 

[peterward]

Yes it is. Being part of NATO means that USA nuclear weapons can be transferred to Ukraine and pointed at Moscow

The cuban missile crisis was the Soviets putting nuclear missiles into Cuba, not the other way around. In recent years theres always been some form of arms control agreements and nuclear missiles are not in the east of europe pointing at Moscow since the end of the cold war (when the were equally pointed at each other).

Again youre getting sucked into a red herring non argument, this isnt about NATO, its about democracy in Ukraine. This isnt about a threat to the state of Russia its about Russia being infected by democracy and all that threats brings to the the despot at the top.

The countries of eastern europe and Ukraine are willingly wanting to join nato as they want to defend themselves from Russia, not attack Russia.

[tweet]1495417154019020804[/tweet]

 

[dangull]

It’s not mandatory, however. And if the US were serious they’d be planting them all over the Baltic states which are a lot closer to the major centres of populated European Russia than Ukraine is.

The Cuban missile crisis was in response for USA and NATO bringing nuclear warheads to Turkey. Just something our western democracies don't talk about in public.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Because some NSCers will have family in Ukraine I hope all the Putin apologists will be thread banned the moment the invasion starts.

Some comments will have the ability to cause massive upset.


I truely fear what we might wake up to tomorrow.

 

[The Clamp]

fantastic post Clamp.



Unfortunately he thinks it is his place.

He demands Russias security guarantees are met, all the while he has ridden roughshod over the security guarantees given to Ukraine in the Budapest memorandum of 1994 to give up its nuclear arsenal in exchange for protection of its sovereignty and borders, and Russia being one of the signatories with UK and US.

Absolutely this.

 

[A1X]

The Cuban missile crisis was in response for USA and NATO bringing nuclear warheads to Turkey. Just something our western democracies don't talk about in public.

So where have the US threatened to put warheads in Ukraine?

 

[peterward]

Because some NSCers will have family in Ukraine I hope all the Putin apologists will be thread banned the moment the invasion starts.

Some comments will have the ability to cause massive upset.


I truely fear what we might wake up to tomorrow.

After Macron spoke to Putin today they agreed the foreign ministers would meet "in the coming days", but now thats changed into, a phone call tomorrow and a hastily arranged meeting of the trilateral committee overseen by the OSCE to de-esculate the conflict in Donbass (thats being stired up by false flags). Thats also very rushed and taking place at short notice tomorrow.

Very selfishly, I hope that buys enough time for my family member to get on a plane, but also see it as another alarming sign.

Why the crazy rush? are they trying to fit it in ahead of an already set in motion, invasion timetable?

 

[The Clamp]

I fully concur my friend. Nobody wants this, just to live their lives in peace.

I frantically applied for another 2 year visit visa for the mother in law when the direction of travel was becoming apparent, got all sponsor docs together, paid an extra £280 for a 5 day priority service, mother in law travelled on 16 hour overnight train on 9th, applied on Thursday 10th Feb, then 16 hours back to Mariupol. I already had a flight booked for this Tuesday 22nd by Wizzair to Luton, but after applying when it went downhill quick and the UK advised people to get out, I assumed the visa would be done by last Thursday (5th working day) and booked another Ryanair flight for last Friday, but my mother in law would have needed to get on a train at 17:15 on thursday night to overnight from Mariupol to get the visa and nothing came through on Thursday, so lost the Ryanair flight money. Sods law visa was approved on Friday, but Visa application centre in Kyiv to collect passport is only open Mon-Fri.

I did think about sticking to the booked Tuesday flight, but again with all the intelliegence etc, "coming days" etc and the false flags, I just didnt want to risk it....plus the Tuesday one is fully flexible so I can change, refund or transfer it. So late last night we messaged mum in law and said to call us first thing this morning, if she was prepared to leave today. She just needed to find someone with a printer to print train,flight, UK Passenger locator forms - she agreed, she can hear the shelling right next to her and is scared. I

booked another Ryanair out of Kyiv tomorrow, takes off at 12:10pm our time. She caught the overnight train tonight and is on it, sleeping as I write.

Arrives in the morning, straight to the visa centre, get passport, then straight off to the airport to fly here.

All being well and barring Putin pulling trigger before tomorrow afternoon or Ryanair cancelling, she will be here tomorrow evening. Will use the Tuesday booking for a return, if/when it calms down.

Mrs is very stressed.

Wow. I hope she gets to you safely.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

I hope we get to the Villa game with no invasion, but the world could be in a very different place by then.

I have real fear about tonight and tomorrow night. Hopefully I'll be breathing a huge sigh of relief tomorrow morning, but then it'll be all about Monday night.

If we can see the week out without invasion then maybe there is some hope.


Biden changes his Presidents Day plans and stays in Washington tonight. A bad, bad sign.

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[Eric the meek]

I fully concur my friend. Nobody wants this, just to live their lives in peace.

I frantically applied for another 2 year visit visa for the mother in law when the direction of travel was becoming apparent, got all sponsor docs together, paid an extra £280 for a 5 day priority service, mother in law travelled on 16 hour overnight train on 9th, applied on Thursday 10th Feb, then 16 hours back to Mariupol. I already had a flight booked for this Tuesday 22nd by Wizzair to Luton, but after applying when it went downhill quick and the UK advised people to get out, I assumed the visa would be done by last Thursday (5th working day) and booked another Ryanair flight for last Friday, but my mother in law would have needed to get on a train at 17:15 on thursday night to overnight from Mariupol to get the visa and nothing came through on Thursday, so lost the Ryanair flight money. Sods law visa was approved on Friday, but Visa application centre in Kyiv to collect passport is only open Mon-Fri.

I did think about sticking to the booked Tuesday flight, but again with all the intelliegence etc, "coming days" etc and the false flags, I just didnt want to risk it....plus the Tuesday one is fully flexible so I can change, refund or transfer it. So late last night we messaged mum in law and said to call us first thing this morning, if she was prepared to leave today. She just needed to find someone with a printer to print train,flight, UK Passenger locator forms - she agreed, she can hear the shelling right next to her and is scared. I

booked another Ryanair out of Kyiv tomorrow, takes off at 12:10pm our time. She caught the overnight train tonight and is on it, sleeping as I write.

Arrives in the morning, straight to the visa centre, get passport, then straight off to the airport to fly here.

All being well and barring Putin pulling trigger before tomorrow afternoon or Ryanair cancelling, she will be here tomorrow evening. Will use the Tuesday booking for a return, if/when it calms down.

Mrs is very stressed.

Jesus. This is just one effect of Putin's phoney war. There will be many others of course. People have already died because of it. None of it needed to happen.

I very much hope your mother in law makes it safely to the UK.

 

[peterward]

Jesus. This is just one effect of Putin's phoney war. There will be many others of course. People have already died because of it. None of it needed to happen.

I very much hope your mother in law makes it safely to the UK.

Thank you Eric

 

[raymondo]

I fully concur my friend. Nobody wants this, just to live their lives in peace.

I frantically applied for another 2 year visit visa for the mother in law when the direction of travel was becoming apparent, got all sponsor docs together, paid an extra £280 for a 5 day priority service, mother in law travelled on 16 hour overnight train on 9th, applied on Thursday 10th Feb, then 16 hours back to Mariupol. I already had a flight booked for this Tuesday 22nd by Wizzair to Luton, but after applying when it went downhill quick and the UK advised people to get out, I assumed the visa would be done by last Thursday (5th working day) and booked another Ryanair flight for last Friday, but my mother in law would have needed to get on a train at 17:15 on thursday night to overnight from Mariupol to get the visa and nothing came through on Thursday, so lost the Ryanair flight money. Sods law visa was approved on Friday, but Visa application centre in Kyiv to collect passport is only open Mon-Fri.

I did think about sticking to the booked Tuesday flight, but again with all the intelliegence etc, "coming days" etc and the false flags, I just didnt want to risk it....plus the Tuesday one is fully flexible so I can change, refund or transfer it. So late last night we messaged mum in law and said to call us first thing this morning, if she was prepared to leave today. She just needed to find someone with a printer to print train,flight, UK Passenger locator forms - she agreed, she can hear the shelling right next to her and is scared. I

booked another Ryanair out of Kyiv tomorrow, takes off at 12:10pm our time. She caught the overnight train tonight and is on it, sleeping as I write.

Arrives in the morning, straight to the visa centre, get passport, then straight off to the airport to fly here.

All being well and barring Putin pulling trigger before tomorrow afternoon or Ryanair cancelling, she will be here tomorrow evening. Will use the Tuesday booking for a return, if/when it calms down.

Mrs is very stressed.

I have my fingers crossed for your mother in law's safe arrival. You can't have done any more to make it happen, so you deserve success. Let us know, hopefully good news.
My in laws are in a village between Zap' and Dnipro, in their 80s and not budging. My wife also has cousins in Kyiv, and adult nephew and young nieces in Zap. All very worried.

 

[atomised]

I fully concur my friend. Nobody wants this, just to live their lives in peace.

I frantically applied for another 2 year visit visa for the mother in law when the direction of travel was becoming apparent, got all sponsor docs together, paid an extra £280 for a 5 day priority service, mother in law travelled on 16 hour overnight train on 9th, applied on Thursday 10th Feb, then 16 hours back to Mariupol. I already had a flight booked for this Tuesday 22nd by Wizzair to Luton, but after applying when it went downhill quick and the UK advised people to get out, I assumed the visa would be done by last Thursday (5th working day) and booked another Ryanair flight for last Friday, but my mother in law would have needed to get on a train at 17:15 on thursday night to overnight from Mariupol to get the visa and nothing came through on Thursday, so lost the Ryanair flight money. Sods law visa was approved on Friday, but Visa application centre in Kyiv to collect passport is only open Mon-Fri.

I did think about sticking to the booked Tuesday flight, but again with all the intelliegence etc, "coming days" etc and the false flags, I just didnt want to risk it....plus the Tuesday one is fully flexible so I can change, refund or transfer it. So late last night we messaged mum in law and said to call us first thing this morning, if she was prepared to leave today. She just needed to find someone with a printer to print train,flight, UK Passenger locator forms - she agreed, she can hear the shelling right next to her and is scared. I

booked another Ryanair out of Kyiv tomorrow, takes off at 12:10pm our time. She caught the overnight train tonight and is on it, sleeping as I write.

Arrives in the morning, straight to the visa centre, get passport, then straight off to the airport to fly here.

All being well and barring Putin pulling trigger before tomorrow afternoon or Ryanair cancelling, she will be here tomorrow evening. Will use the Tuesday booking for a return, if/when it calms down.

Mrs is very stressed.

Will keep everything crossed for you and hope this goes smoothly

 

[peterward]

I have my fingers crossed for your mother in law's safe arrival. You can't have done any more to make it happen, so you deserve success. Let us know, hopefully good news.
My in laws are in a village between Zap' and Dnipro, in their 80s and not budging. My wife also has cousins in Kyiv, and adult nephew and young nieces in Zap. All very worried.

I've been to Zaporozhye, flew in last time I went, on air ukraine from Gatwick via Kyiv. Nice city.

I know how you feel buddy. Truly hope your family avoid any potential issues too. Long suffering people.

My mother in law met a fellow widower who lost his wife about the same time she lost my father in law a few years back, so she's got a live in boyfriend, sisters local too. She actually didnt want to come or leave her partner Nick, she didnt believe Russia would attack (she has a deluded opinion about Russia as she often watches Russian TV)..and also worried she wouldnt see him again. My Mrs, who is an only child, and hasnt seen her for 2 years, persuaded and literally begged her to come, seeing western news, so she agreed. Now the shelling has restarted locally again, I think she's a bit more understanding of potential risks...... Nobody knows what's going to happen, when or where, except Putin. Everyone else just trying to minimise risks to loved ones and play the odds.

Of course I'll let you know tomorrow mate. Thank you for your kind words.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

They look to be planning on refuelling a lot of fighters/bombers over the Atlantic.

B-52's, raptors, even spirits to knock out Russian Air defence ?

Maybe just to put the wind up Putin or to deter an attack on the Suwalki gap.

Something is happening.

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