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Pompey - ha ha!
- Thread starter HampshireSeagulls
- Start date
Easy 10
Brain dead MUG SHEEP
Some of the comments on that Pompey News site defy belief.
We read yesterday - this judge doesn't like being messed about! he is quick and to the point. Unless this new paperwork is blindingly important I hope he will come back this afternoon and either tell HMRC where to get off or, at least, give them some sort of tongue-lashing for their tardiness and obvious delaying tactics.
Most of their gripes are not with us but with the PL in general, the judge will be well aware of that too. He may well advise (taking into mind precedents) HMRC to drop this and stop wasting everyone's time and money! Let's hope so anyway!
They just don't GET it, do they.
We read yesterday - this judge doesn't like being messed about! he is quick and to the point. Unless this new paperwork is blindingly important I hope he will come back this afternoon and either tell HMRC where to get off or, at least, give them some sort of tongue-lashing for their tardiness and obvious delaying tactics.
Most of their gripes are not with us but with the PL in general, the judge will be well aware of that too. He may well advise (taking into mind precedents) HMRC to drop this and stop wasting everyone's time and money! Let's hope so anyway!
They just don't GET it, do they.
Gordon the Gopher
Active member
or to put it in more detail......
Pompey operated a sham to avoid paying millions of pounds in tax, the High Court was told today.
For Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, Gregory Mitchell QC said tax officials had worked out that the club owed the taxman £30m.
'This assessment goes back some way - to the tax year of 2006/07 - and has been a very complex investigation.
'PAYE should have been paid and has not been paid. What has happened is that for some years the club has entered into sham agreements under which players were being paid in respect of image rights when in fact there was no commercial basis for it.
'It was a sham. It was a way in which the club could pay the money into a tax haven.'
Mr Mitchell went on to criticise another 'sham' he alleged Pompey used to avoid paying tax.
This concerned money paid into players' employment benefit trusts in what he described as 'tax havens'.
Mr Mitchell said: 'The Revenue says these are disguised payments of salaries on which PAYE should have been paid.'
He told the court that the taxpayer was always the victim when a club went into administration.
'It's's always the Treasury which loses out when a football club becomes insolvent.
'What the football authorities have done is design a set of rules and a payment system which means that football creditors get paid and HMRC doesn't.'
The revenue is unhappy that football creditors are entitled to be paid in full.
Mr Mitchell added: 'That's's why the football authorities always want clubs to win a company voluntary agreement (CVA).
'Their policy is to make it impossible for anyone to challenge this rule and in every occasion it's HMRC which loses out.'
Mr Mitchell added: 'This appeal is not about precise figures, it's about principle.'
Earlier, before the hearing started in earnest, Mr Justice Mann had adjourned proceedings to read extra papers submitted by the Inland Revenue.
One of the first arrivals at court was Pompey chief executive David Lampitt.
As he passed waiting reporters he said he was feeling 'nervous' about the hearing.
HMRC is challenging a company voluntary agreement which would enable Pompey to come out of administration.
It was brokered by adminstrator Andrew Andronikou, who was not in court this morning but took his place among Pompey's legal team as the afternoon session kicked off.
Revenue officials are unhappy that HMRC will receive just 20p in the £ for unpaid tax bills.
Pompey dispute the size of the debt to HMRC. The taxman says tax is owed through image rights paid to players into offshore accounts.
The case will continue tomorrow and the judgment will be on Thursday.
Gordon the Gopher
Active member
And anyone still not rooting for HMRC may want to check the part of this blog in bold........
Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs (HMRC) may have reached a deal with Southend United over the League Two club's £340,000 debts but the taxman returns to the High Court on Tuesday to take on a far more significant footballing quarry.
When HMRC begins its appeal in Court 52 against the Company Voluntary Agreement (CVA) put together by Portsmouth's administrators this morning, the saga surrounding the stricken club's finances will reach its most crucial moment yet.
And the very existence of Pompey hangs in the balance.
The CVA agreed in June offers to pay 20p in the pound to the club's unsecured creditors over four years. But HMRC is challenging this on the basis that footballing creditors such as millionaire players and rich Premier League clubs are unfairly given preference and 100% of monies owed under the sport's rules, while local businesses and charities like St Johns Ambulance receive only a fraction of what they are due.
Furthermore, HMRC is confident of convincing the court that Portsmouth have been avoiding tax and claims it is owed £37m, a full £13m more than the administrators have stated, on the basis that extra money is owed through image rights paid to players into offshore accounts, another issue the tax authorities are keen to tackle across the sport. The taxman will also point to alleged "material irregularities" in the creditor vote that led to the CVA being approved.
If Mr Justice Mann rules in favour of HMRC, Portsmouth could face a deduction of up to 20 points by the Football League, almost certainly condemning them to relegation again and perhaps leaving chief administrator Andrew Andronikou with little choice but to place the club into liquidation. However, if Portsmouth fend off the challenge, they can exit administration, making it significantly easier for Andronikou to find another new buyer.
With the Championship season starting at the end of this week, the club's transfer embargo would also be lifted in the nick of time, allowing new manager Steve Cotterill to finally bolster his depleted squad with loan players. The size of Pompey's debt means the club currently has only 15 senior players and, with the departure of David James to Bristol City, not one single goalkeeper in the first-team squad.
James was also wanted by Celtic. Photo: Getty Images
With Pompey's first home game - against Reading on 14 August - in jeopardy because of a dispute with former owner Alexandre Gaydamak over car parking charges on the land he owns that surrounds Fratton Park, Portsmouth need some good news - and fast.
HMRC is in the strange position of knowing that if it wins the case, it could lose the £6m currently being offered to it by the CVA. However, it appears the tax authorities are willing to accept such a loss if it means setting an important legal precedent in this test case against what it sees as football's failure to pay its due tax, both in terms of the football creditors rule and the payment of image rights.
Andronikou is confident of success but Coventry University's Dr John Beech, one of the country's leading football finance experts, is less sure. "I would have to say that I think it is less clear-cut," he said. "This is the biggest moment yet in this saga. HMRC seem intent on bringing all the issues to a single head against Portsmouth. It's a mess. and one which, in the worst-case scenario, could see Portsmouth liquidated and HMRC ending up with much less than the 20p in the pound that it is rejecting. No-one's a winner if that happens, except, of course, the lawyers."
Back in May, the HMRC filed a separate High Court action against the Premier League, alleging that the football creditor rule is unlawful and has cost taxpayers millions of pounds. The case is not due to be heard until November but could be brought forward depending on what happens in the case against Portsmouth.
The Premier League says it will "robustly defend" its position and argues football's bankruptcy laws help "contain" the contamination of a club going bust. Without the rules, it argues, Watford would have followed Portsmouth into administration last year because of monies Pompey owed to the Hornets for the purchase of players. Instead, the Premier League was able to give Portsmouth's TV money directly to Watford to pay for the transfers of Tommy Smith and Mike Williamson.
When Sheffield Wednesday received notification of a petition to wind them up in July, it was the fifth time in three months that the taxman had taken action against a football club after papers were served against Cardiff City, Portsmouth, Preston North End and Southend United. Portsmouth's fate in Court 52 over the next 48 hours could have serious consequences for football far beyond Fratton Park.
Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs (HMRC) may have reached a deal with Southend United over the League Two club's £340,000 debts but the taxman returns to the High Court on Tuesday to take on a far more significant footballing quarry.
When HMRC begins its appeal in Court 52 against the Company Voluntary Agreement (CVA) put together by Portsmouth's administrators this morning, the saga surrounding the stricken club's finances will reach its most crucial moment yet.
And the very existence of Pompey hangs in the balance.
The CVA agreed in June offers to pay 20p in the pound to the club's unsecured creditors over four years. But HMRC is challenging this on the basis that footballing creditors such as millionaire players and rich Premier League clubs are unfairly given preference and 100% of monies owed under the sport's rules, while local businesses and charities like St Johns Ambulance receive only a fraction of what they are due.
Furthermore, HMRC is confident of convincing the court that Portsmouth have been avoiding tax and claims it is owed £37m, a full £13m more than the administrators have stated, on the basis that extra money is owed through image rights paid to players into offshore accounts, another issue the tax authorities are keen to tackle across the sport. The taxman will also point to alleged "material irregularities" in the creditor vote that led to the CVA being approved.
If Mr Justice Mann rules in favour of HMRC, Portsmouth could face a deduction of up to 20 points by the Football League, almost certainly condemning them to relegation again and perhaps leaving chief administrator Andrew Andronikou with little choice but to place the club into liquidation. However, if Portsmouth fend off the challenge, they can exit administration, making it significantly easier for Andronikou to find another new buyer.
With the Championship season starting at the end of this week, the club's transfer embargo would also be lifted in the nick of time, allowing new manager Steve Cotterill to finally bolster his depleted squad with loan players. The size of Pompey's debt means the club currently has only 15 senior players and, with the departure of David James to Bristol City, not one single goalkeeper in the first-team squad.
James was also wanted by Celtic. Photo: Getty Images
With Pompey's first home game - against Reading on 14 August - in jeopardy because of a dispute with former owner Alexandre Gaydamak over car parking charges on the land he owns that surrounds Fratton Park, Portsmouth need some good news - and fast.
HMRC is in the strange position of knowing that if it wins the case, it could lose the £6m currently being offered to it by the CVA. However, it appears the tax authorities are willing to accept such a loss if it means setting an important legal precedent in this test case against what it sees as football's failure to pay its due tax, both in terms of the football creditors rule and the payment of image rights.
Andronikou is confident of success but Coventry University's Dr John Beech, one of the country's leading football finance experts, is less sure. "I would have to say that I think it is less clear-cut," he said. "This is the biggest moment yet in this saga. HMRC seem intent on bringing all the issues to a single head against Portsmouth. It's a mess. and one which, in the worst-case scenario, could see Portsmouth liquidated and HMRC ending up with much less than the 20p in the pound that it is rejecting. No-one's a winner if that happens, except, of course, the lawyers."
Back in May, the HMRC filed a separate High Court action against the Premier League, alleging that the football creditor rule is unlawful and has cost taxpayers millions of pounds. The case is not due to be heard until November but could be brought forward depending on what happens in the case against Portsmouth.
The Premier League says it will "robustly defend" its position and argues football's bankruptcy laws help "contain" the contamination of a club going bust. Without the rules, it argues, Watford would have followed Portsmouth into administration last year because of monies Pompey owed to the Hornets for the purchase of players. Instead, the Premier League was able to give Portsmouth's TV money directly to Watford to pay for the transfers of Tommy Smith and Mike Williamson.
When Sheffield Wednesday received notification of a petition to wind them up in July, it was the fifth time in three months that the taxman had taken action against a football club after papers were served against Cardiff City, Portsmouth, Preston North End and Southend United. Portsmouth's fate in Court 52 over the next 48 hours could have serious consequences for football far beyond Fratton Park.
Gritt23
New member
But don't forget, it's the fans who suffer!!!
Forget the local businesses who have supported the club for decades, and are now being bankrupted because they extended credit to the multi-million pound football club. No, it's not them that apparently deserve our sympathy, it's the fans who have had to endure Wembley trips, and an FA Cup win courtesy of players they could never afford in the first place that should be remembered at this difficult time.
Forget the local businesses who have supported the club for decades, and are now being bankrupted because they extended credit to the multi-million pound football club. No, it's not them that apparently deserve our sympathy, it's the fans who have had to endure Wembley trips, and an FA Cup win courtesy of players they could never afford in the first place that should be remembered at this difficult time.
sten_super
Brain Surgeon
I'm all in favour of this move by HMRC, but it's funny how they mention the Premier League club and players, and not the smaller cases. Apparently Watford would probably have entered administration had they not received the money due to them from Portsmouth last season (which was taken direct out of Sky TV money due to the club and given to Watford). Also, what about their young players on £300 a week? At Southend I'm sure there are plenty of players that just make it from week to week on what they are paid, is it alright for them not to receive the money they are owed as well?
I appreciate that anyone associated with a business in administration suffers, but there does have to be some perspective placed on this; it's not all multi-millionaire clubs and players that are affected within the football business.
But those players on £300 a week buy into the whole football world. The poor sod who prints the programmes who has had to lay off staff on less per week has had to settle for 20p in the pound. I have no sympathy for any of the football creditors - they are part of the problem. The taxpayer ( many of whom earn considerably less than any league player ), the private businesses and the charities deserve at least equal treatment.
All in all - I hope Pompey go bust - maybe it will focus a few football minds on running a business rather than pure greed.
Gritt23
New member
Maybe the Millionaires in the dressing room who could afford to get 20p in the £, would start to realise what they are doing if they were sat there with youth players in tears because the 20p in the £ to them will see their house repossessed.
That would be the nearest these guys ever get to seeing the World outside their ridiculous bubble of unreality.
That would be the nearest these guys ever get to seeing the World outside their ridiculous bubble of unreality.
HampshireSeagulls
Moulding Generation Z
- Thread starter
- #129
The Pompey fans are still wailing about why everyone hates them, and why wasn't it sorted out earlier! They don't like being reminded that actually this case has been dragging on for almost four years in various forms with unpaid debts, transfer payments that have been investigated, etc. It is looking more and more like HMRC would be willing to see Portsmouth as the sacrificial lamb - the one that proves the point and sets the precedent. It would be pointless them going after a major Premier League Club as they would be able to bring in huge armies of lawyers - they are picking off the weakest (and you can only imagine the looks you get around here when you call Pompey that!). The judge has already asked about Wimbledon when they went out of existence - he must be considering that as an option.
Pompey are claiming that it's "unfair" - but the other clubs do not appear to have been trying to fraudulently hide funds in offshore accounts, avoid tax payments, etc. They are in trouble, no doubt about it. Unless they can offer HMRC a huge commitment, they are going to be forced to the wall, and the other clubs (and the PL and FL management) had better be looking closely at how they do business!
Pompey are claiming that it's "unfair" - but the other clubs do not appear to have been trying to fraudulently hide funds in offshore accounts, avoid tax payments, etc. They are in trouble, no doubt about it. Unless they can offer HMRC a huge commitment, they are going to be forced to the wall, and the other clubs (and the PL and FL management) had better be looking closely at how they do business!
- Jul 7, 2003
- 47,501
AFC Bournemouth- major financial issues over the last few years
West Ham- major financial issues over the last few years.
Pompey- major financial issues over the last few years.
It's almost as though there's some kind of common link between these clubs, perhaps a larger than life individual who sweeps through and watches the carnage unfold, then disappears off to the next club who offer him big money.
Can't think of anyone who that would apply to though
West Ham- major financial issues over the last few years.
Pompey- major financial issues over the last few years.
It's almost as though there's some kind of common link between these clubs, perhaps a larger than life individual who sweeps through and watches the carnage unfold, then disappears off to the next club who offer him big money.
Can't think of anyone who that would apply to though
AFC Bournemouth- major financial issues over the last few years
West Ham- major financial issues over the last few years.
Pompey- major financial issues over the last few years.
It's almost as though there's some kind of common link between these clubs, perhaps a larger than life individual who sweeps through and watches the carnage unfold, then disappears off to the next club who offer him big money.
Can't think of anyone who that would apply to though
Did he manage all the other clubs which have gone bust or are in admin?
Although you are joking I hope you don't use selective evidence like that in working life.
227 BHA
Well-known member
AFC Bournemouth- major financial issues over the last few years
West Ham- major financial issues over the last few years.
Pompey- major financial issues over the last few years.
It's almost as though there's some kind of common link between these clubs, perhaps a larger than life individual who sweeps through and watches the carnage unfold, then disappears off to the next club who offer him big money.
Can't think of anyone who that would apply to though
It's so easy to blame the manager though but what manager doesn't do his upmost to squeeze as much cash as he can out of the board?
It's surely up to the chairman and the board of directors to manage the budget not the team coach?
- Jul 7, 2003
- 47,501
Much love.
Gritt23
New member
You're right Edna, there must be a link there somewhere, just can't think of it.
Then again, if there was someone connected to all of those and their financial meltdown, then surely the authorities would have uncovered this link and being investigating that person. We'd hear about it, they'd be doing dawn raids on the persons house in search of incriminating evidence.
Btw, you forgot the financial meltdown at Southampton!
Then again, if there was someone connected to all of those and their financial meltdown, then surely the authorities would have uncovered this link and being investigating that person. We'd hear about it, they'd be doing dawn raids on the persons house in search of incriminating evidence.
Btw, you forgot the financial meltdown at Southampton!
AFC Bournemouth- major financial issues over the last few years
West Ham- major financial issues over the last few years.
Pompey- major financial issues over the last few years.
It's almost as though there's some kind of common link between these clubs.
Can't think of anyone who that would apply to though
Is it JERMAINE DEFOE?
I claim my five pounds.
What you say is perfectly true, but what about the £300 a week trainees at the companies of creditors they are screwing over? Why should the £300 a week Pompey trainees be treated any differently from the £300 a week trainee chefs at the caterers Pompey are screwing over?
Not yet, but if Pompey go bust (as they should do), then the fans will have suffered, no doubt about it.
Well ideally I'd like to see them 'do a Southampton' and pay off all their debts in full. But failing that, yes, I want to see them 'do an Aldershot'. It's only happened before to the little clubs, the big clubs (Palace, Leicester, Leeds, Palace again, etc) seem to hide behind the mountains of paperwork, a bewildering legal trail and various off-shore companies. A bit of corporate sleight-of-hand and the new club emerges and pretty much carries on as before. Crucially other clubs see that and realise there's no real penalty in 'chasing the dream' so long as the scale of your debts is high enough (to block HMRC) and the papertrail dense enough. And so it goes on, with the knock-on effect that other clubs have to raise their prices in order to generate income to compete with the profligate clubs - so we all suffer.
To turn the question on it's head slightly: what do you think should happen to them? Is relegation from the Premiership (which would probably have happened anyway) and a ten, twenty, thirty, whatever point deduction in the Championship a sufficient punishment?
AFC Bournemouth- major financial issues over the last few years
West Ham- major financial issues over the last few years.
Pompey- major financial issues over the last few years.
It's almost as though there's some kind of common link between these clubs, perhaps a larger than life individual who sweeps through and watches the carnage unfold, then disappears off to the next club who offer him big money.
Can't think of anyone who that would apply to though
I know that this is made in jest but it's a bit unreasonable. Bournemouth went into admin about 15 years after 'Arry left them. West Ham's problems were about 6 years after he left them - and a more connected with the fact that the club's Icelandic owners were hit when the Iceland economy nosedived. And he was only at Southampton for a year, scarcely long enough to have had a massive financial impact.
His fingerprints are all over the Portsmouth crash - but as 227 BHA says, it's surely up to the board to keep tabs on the manager's spending. I'm willing to bet you that Tottenham don't go into admin in the next five years as that seems to have a board that keeps a close eye on spending.
And to answer Brovion's question, I think a 30-point deduction would serve perfectly. They're scarcely punished at the moment.