Pompey - ha ha!

[Simster]

You've missed the point. Fans Utd wasn't about fund-raising, it was about saving the club from Archer. That's why our situation and Portsmouth's current one are different; indeed the only similarity is that both clubs were 'in trouble'.

No. YOU have missed the point. My point is that one club's fans was losing it's club by being asset stripped (not the fault of it's fans), while the other club's fans might be losing it's club because of overspending (not the fault of it's fans).

Yet you stated in your over-simplistic way that you have no sympathy for their fans:

But, ok, I'll feel sorry for their fans. All the fans that organised protests against the owners for spending too much, all the fans who refused to celebrate the FA Cup win and all the fans who boycotted the big Premiership and European games because they knew it was all funded by unsustainable debts have my sympathy.

Yes but there's "getting your checkbook out" and then there's buying players who are surely too expensive for your club. Look at Diarra - played at Chelsea then Arsenal previous to his spell in Pompey, then goes to Real Madrid for £20 million! Would Hull have signed him? Wigan? Would they bollocks. The whole untold riches thing is clearly not as simple as it is portrayed, why haven't Blackpool spent £50 million on new players this summer? Sorry but I really think this is quite an exceptional situation and can't really be compared to many others. Spending money is one thing, but Portsmouth having the 4th-highest wage bill in the PL is utter madness.

So I trust that nobody would give a toss about Man City's fans if their club goes to the wall in 5 years time? Because they're being bankrolled too and I don't see many Citeh fans complaining.

Isn't it a good job that the bloke bankrolling BHA is a fan and is building us a stadium instead of good players.

 

[Billy the Fish]

There is a direct comparison between tham and us. We were both f***ed over by the owners, it might have been in a different way but it still boils down to mismanagement of a private company. It could happen to any club in the country, it is happening at Man Utd at the moment, it's happened at Liverpool and it could still happen to us.

We all trust Tony Bloom and I'm 100% sure he has the best long term interests of the club at heart but if he wasn't there to pick up the bill for Falmer (imagine a senario where Tony never made his fortune) we could've quite easily been landed with some foreign businessman who promised the earth but put the club in £millions of debt, kept ownership of Falmer and raped the club for rent every year to line his own pockets.

I'm not about to start crying into my cornflakes about portsmouth, but all the people trying to say their situation is different to ours are wrong. Fro the fans perspective it is the same thing - screwed by shit owners

 

[Brovion]

No. YOU have missed the point. My point is that one club's fans was losing it's club by being asset stripped (not the fault of it's fans), while the other club's fans might be losing it's club because of overspending (not the fault of it's fans).

.

Bollocks. You were going on about 'begging buckets being full' which was most emphatically NOT the point of Fans Utd - unless we intended to use the money for a new club as we had no intention of handing it over to Archer.

And whilst I do have sympathy with the 'good' Portsmouth fans (a very good friend of mine is a Pompey fan who came to Fans Utd) and obviously it isn't their fault, they did turn a blind eye and just accepted the good times without question; there was no BISA, there was no pitch invasion, no boycott and no visiting the chairman's house en-masse. Now they just want to carry on as if nothing had happened.

Their story is like: "Yeah, we're Pompey, we're in the Prem and you're not, we've won the FA Cup, we've been in Europe, we've got to Wembley again ... oh shit we're in trouble, we're going to go bust, help us please you wouldn't like it if it happened to your club!" To paraphrase Oscar Wilde: "One would have to have a heart of stone to read of the demise of Portsmouth without laughing!"

 

[Biscuit]

Are we not splitting hairs here?

Surely both sides (of this arguement - not the pompey fans!) are pleased to see them struggle a bit, it's just to what degree that we disagree on?

Would anyone really want them to go bust and drop out the league completely? I certainly wouldn't.

 

[Simon Morgan]

So I trust that nobody would give a toss about Man City's fans if their club goes to the wall in 5 years time? Because they're being bankrolled too and I don't see many Citeh fans complaining.

Isn't it a good job that the bloke bankrolling BHA is a fan and is building us a stadium instead of good players.

Actually if I was a City fan I would be very worried about what has happened to their club. Surely they will suffer for their ridiculous spending in the future. If ever we were taken over by someone untrustworthy then I would also be slightly worried. And I can't believe some Pompey fans weren't worried when the club started signing players that were blatantly out of their league!

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

But we're forever being told that the Premiership means untold riches. Isn't it the case that the play off final is the richest game in football? If not, then there is a lot of misinformation being peddled. If it is, then I don't see why those players don't become instantly affordable, especially when allied to a billionaire owner seemingly bankrolling the club. And that is another point - didn't these problems arise after the Russian owers got bored sold to the Arab owners? (So not really as much to do with the players at the club)

They had already seen Leeds "Chasing the Dream". All fans know there are not untold riches and any fan with any common-sense knows there are half a dozen clubs that the normal rules of finance do not seem to apply - and the rest of us need to beware.

And we all knew that when Portsmouth were buying their England strike force. And most of us suspected then it would end in tears.

However it appeared to most Postsmouth fans I know that the normal order was being restored and they are one of the half-dozen clubs.

 

[itszamora]

I have two points to make. Firstly regarding Bloom's legacy to the Albion as was mentioned a couple of pages back, this question was raised when he was at Seagulls Over London. I can't remember exactly what he said, but I think it was along the lines that his whole family are fans, and that therefore should something happen to him his stake would pass to his wife/sons, who also have the best interests of the club at heart.

Secondly, when Pompey were rolling in the good times, I am under the impression that Sacha Gaydamak was bankrolling the football side of things. Then if I remember rightly he got bored, pulled the plug, and the club didn't cut costs (ie the players) now that they had to live within their means again, if anything they went the other way to try and achieve sustainability through, I guess, the Champions League. Basically, then, it was a massive gamble that backfired, not unlike Leeds. Chelsea and Man City beware.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

And I can't believe some Pompey fans weren't worried when the club started signing players that were blatantly out of their league!

I am sure there were - I was talking to a worried Leeds fan the day they signed Robbie Fowler. But you do want to believe it is all going to be ok and that the people in charge know what they are doing.

 

[itszamora]

They had already seen Leeds "Chasing the Dream". All fans know there are not untold riches and any fan with any common-sense knows there are half a dozen clubs that the normal rules of finance do not seem to apply - and the rest of us need to beware.

And we all knew that when Portsmouth were buying their England strike force. And most of us suspected then it would end in tears.

However it appeared to most Postsmouth fans I know that the normal order was being restored and they are one of the half-dozen clubs.

The Premiership IS untold riches, compared to the Football League. The higher echelons of the Premiership are in another financial league again though, and it's trying to bridge this gap and failing that has led to Portsmouth's demise.

 

[Publius Ovidius]

surely we as taxpayers should all be worried if professional sportsmen earning more money than most of us could ever dream of earning, have a loophole whereby they get paid a proportion of their wages as "image rights" into offshore accounts that does not attract tax and national insurance.

Its a fecking outrage.

 

[itszamora]

surely we as taxpayers should all be worried if professional sportsmen earning more money than most of us could ever dream of earning, have a loophole whereby they get paid a proportion of their wages as "image rights" into offshore accounts that does not attract tax and national insurance.

Its a fecking outrage.

I agree - and as that money is earned in the UK, surely it should be taxed in the UK. If this is the basis HMRC are fighting their case on and they've got the numbers right, I can't see how they can lose. But then again, I am not a lawyer.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

surely we as taxpayers should all be worried if professional sportsmen earning more money than most of us could ever dream of earning, have a loophole whereby they get paid a proportion of their wages as "image rights" into offshore accounts that does not attract tax and national insurance.

Its a fecking outrage.

And there are lots of clubs looking at proceedings tomorrow.

It is an outrage.

As is football creditors being paid before HMRC.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

The Premiership IS untold riches, compared to the Football League. The higher echelons of the Premiership are in another financial league again though, and it's trying to bridge this gap and failing that has led to Portsmouth's demise.

Yep. You suspect that say, West Brom with a strike force of Bednar rather than Portsmouth with Crouch and Defoe had a more long term perspective.

 

[Curious Orange]

surely we as taxpayers should all be worried if professional sportsmen earning more money than most of us could ever dream of earning, have a loophole whereby they get paid a proportion of their wages as "image rights" into offshore accounts that does not attract tax and national insurance.

Its a fecking outrage.

Sounds very much like an earned income to me...

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

The potential for problems has been known for a long time in the Portsmouth area - there have been questions about the planning for a new training ground which they could not afford, the problems with finances were raised when it came to the new owners, the new ground planning and also the players that we being brought in - not to mention to backroom and support staff that were growing exponentially. The signs have been there to see, certainly around here, for some time - they just chose to ignore them because they were a "big club waiting to happen". The risk management went wrong, they were exploited by business people who knew what they were doing and as soon as the problems become more public, everyone wants their money back.

 

[Couldn't Be Hyypia]

who in their right mind would buy a football team in millions of debt, minimal amount of players and having to spend more for the stadiums car park!

:albion1:

Won't be in debt though if they can dump 80% of it. Then it makes the whole thing more attractive to a buyer.

This didn't happen at Southampton, where the buyer came in and cleared the debt then started investing in the team. Looks like Pompey however are going to sh1t on their creditors.

 

[Not Andy Naylor]

When Tal Ben Haim, who doesn't even HAVE an image, is paid six-figures-plus in image rights, you smell a rat.

And I have to say that the majority of Portsmouth fans heard no evil, saw no evil and spoke no evil even when some of us in the national press began dragging some unpleasant facts about their corrupt club out into the light. In fact, it was all the press's fault according to some of them.

They were in denial and very few of them raised so much as a question, let alone an objection until the truth was staring them in the face. Wilful ignorance being punished is what's happening here.

Rant over now. Move along. Nothing to see here ....

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

When Tal Ben Haim, who doesn't even HAVE an image, is paid six-figures-plus in image rights, you smell a rat.

When Steve Bruce left Birmingham there was a dispute about his image rights. Blimey O'Reilly.

 

[sten_super]

So, what are people's opinions on the High Court proceedings today then?

Interesting article from Dan Roan on the BBC...
BBC - Dan Roan: Pompey on the brink

I retain a hope that they will find in favour of HMRC, who will then be able to block the CVA. While this brings up the possibility of the club folding (which I don't want to see), a nice -20 point deduction would make even survival a difficult task for this season. Maybe once they are even worse off than they were before the beginning of their Premiership oddessy (i.e. in League One) they will start to think that maybe it wasn't all worth it after all...

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

Watching a live blog of the hearing on The News website now.

"Opening the case for HMRC Ian Mitchell QC said the taxpayer was always the victim when a club went into administration. He told the judge: 'It's always the Treasury which loses out when a football club becomes insolvent. He added: 'What the football authorities have done is design a set of rules and a payment system which means that football creditors get paid and HMRC doesn't.'"

Sounds like HMRC are going after Portsmouth as the test case - they want blood.