New Road 'car and pedestrian sharing' - does it work?

[Mtoto]

The last time - until the next one - that I had to endure a bus to Haywards Heath instead of the train on a Sunday morning, I asked one of the rail staff why I'd never encountered engineering works in either France or Germany. His answer: their rail networks were bombed to pieces in the war and rebuilt properly, whereas we are still struggling to maintain a Victorian network. According to this theory, it's our own fault for winning the war, and we're still paying for it 65 years later.

Re New Road, the cars/pedestrians mix works fine, because you can hear cars coming and they are going very slowly. Unfortunately, the same is not true of the cyclist/pedestrian mix. A lot of them ride through there at high speed and weave in, out and around the pedestrians without ever considering that the ones walking the same way won't know they're coming. If anyone gets seriously hurt there, I'd reckon it's much more likely a bike will be involved.

And I'm not anti-bike, I'm a cyclist too. I just don't like colliding with people.

 

[British Bulldog]

No room? I'm no train expert but it surely cannot be too difficult to remove some seats and reconfigure a train carriage? The rest of Europe manages it. In fact they've all signed up to a EU regulation last year which will put more bike space on trains. And what did England do.......they postponed signing up for (I think) 15 years. In some respects this country deserves every f***ing traffic jam it gets.

And before you say 'but we need all the seats we can get on a train' I'll respond with run more f**king trains.

On a personal note I prefered the older style trains with the guards van where you could put bikes but the powers that be decided more seats was the priority, In response to your suggestion of running more f**king trains maybe you'd like to tell me where you propose to turn these trains around seeing as terminus stations like Brighton & Victoria are running at full capacity as it is?

 

[sten_super]

In response to your suggestion of running more f**king trains maybe you'd like to tell me where you propose to turn these trains around seeing as terminus stations like Brighton & Victoria are running at full capacity as it is?

That's the problem though isn't it, as mentioned by Mtoto. We need to seriously consider building entirely new stations and entirely new rail networks that can deal with the size and frequency of train required if we are serious about using trains as a viable method of transport for the masses.

 

[Brovion]

For the most part I agree with you.

However, I would say, and again it's anecdotally, that traffic has improved in some parts of the city, and the 'let's make driving hard and maybe people will stop doing it...' attitude has borne some fruit. Bear with me here.

Where previously, for instance, you could drive in any direction along any road in the North Laine, now you can't (it's a measure incidentally that it wouldn't hurt to be introduced into Hanover). As a result, there are areas in the city where there is little or no traffic, and that makes for a more pleasant atmosphere - it's one of the reasons why people like the North Laine so much.

As a result, traffic is confined to certain routes, and not to others.

The point is, as I said earlier, Brighton residents have cottoned on to the bizarre one ways and 'you can't go there, you've got to go there...' routes, and as such use public transport. So in that sense, I think it has worked. It's anecdotal, and it is clumsy, but it has been effective.

In other words, the attitude is if you want to go into the City Centre, don't bother your arse driving, unless you really have to.

Of course, much of this is undone by the excessively high fares on what is otherwise a decent bus service. I'm guessing at this bit here, but I suspect that Brighton, because it is slightly bucking a national trend for bus usage, has become a victim of its own 'success'. I reckon that the bus company - Go Ahead - wants to put fares up on several of its companies, but can't do so because the passenger numbers in other towns and cities isn't there. But in Brighton, it is, so they milk that cow to exhaustion.

Yes, I broadly agree. My main gripe isn't so much in the city centre as out in the suburbs and all the snide little schemes designed to make life harder for people with a car. They always say it's for 'pedestrians and other road users' but that is just bollocks. I've lived in Fiveways since 1991 and I've wheeled prams, pushchairs, wheelchairs, wheelbarrows and once a cast-iron bathtub round the local roads and not once did I think "Hey, do you know what would really help? By the junctions they should narrow all the roads and build out all the kerbs. Plus a random 100 metres of cycle lane by Hollingbury Park will be really useful."

 

[British Bulldog]

That's the problem though isn't it, as mentioned by Mtoto. We need to seriously consider building entirely new stations and entirely new rail networks that can deal with the size and frequency of train required if we are serious about using trains as a viable method of transport for the masses.

I'd be all in favour of a complete overhaul of the rail network but I doubt anybody would be bold or brave enough to invest the £billions needed to do it.

 

[Uter]

I'd be all in favour of a complete overhaul of the rail network but I doubt anybody would be bold or brave enough to invest the £billions needed to do it.

I guess you may already know, but Thameslink is currently undergoing a major investment program costing billions that will increase the maximum length of Thameslink trains by 50%, i.e. from 8 to 12 carriages, allow 3 times as many trains per hour, up to 24 from 8, and serve a lot more destinations, e.g. Hove and Cambridge. An entire fleet of new carriages has been ordered too.

And when Crossrail is finished this will mean it's possible to travel to a huge number of stations in the SE from the South coast with only up to 1 change.

Don't hold your breath though. Crossrail isn't scheduled to be finished until 2017 although Thameslink will be finished earlier.

Clearly still more billions more need to be spent in order to bring the rest of the network into the 21st century, but it's a significant step in the right direction IMO.

I don't know if the new carriages will be designed to allow cycles though.

 

[Uter]

Yes, I broadly agree. My main gripe isn't so much in the city centre as out in the suburbs and all the snide little schemes designed to make life harder for people with a car. They always say it's for 'pedestrians and other road users' but that is just bollocks. I've lived in Fiveways since 1991 and I've wheeled prams, pushchairs, wheelchairs, wheelbarrows and once a cast-iron bathtub round the local roads and not once did I think "Hey, do you know what would really help? By the junctions they should narrow all the roads and build out all the kerbs. Plus a random 100 metres of cycle lane by Hollingbury Park will be really useful."

Well I do currently push a pram around on a regular basis an I actually appreciate the build outs, but I guess that's just me.

 

[Uter]

A thought that occurred to me this evening as I walked that precise route.

And I'm someone who was involved in developing some of the traffic management schemes in and around Western Road / Dyke Road in the early 1990s - and can usually be relied upon to come up with the "what you people need to understand is ..." type of justification for most of the oddities of central Brighton.

So can you clear up why we have quite a few traffic light controlled junctions in B&H where only 2 or 3 crossing points have pedestrian signals, e.g. The Drive/Cromwell Road. Am I supposed to cross at three points just to continue my journey on the same side of the road? I have always wondered.

 

[British Bulldog]

I guess you may already know, but Thameslink is currently undergoing a major investment program costing billions that will increase the maximum length of Thameslink trains by 50%, i.e. from 8 to 12 carriages, allow 3 times as many trains per hour, up to 24 from 8, and serve a lot more destinations, e.g. Hove and Cambridge. An entire fleet of new carriages has been ordered too.

I think a lot of what is planned there was origionaly planned as the Thameslink 2000 project so allthough it's welcome it's somewhat later than origionaly planned. There is a lot of work going on upgrading and extending the east london line at the moment with new services planned for may 2010, There's a new stretch of line going in from new cross gate to dalston junction and better turn round facilities at Crystal Palace, West Croydon & South Croydon.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

"What you people need to understand is" ... it was UK public policy from about 1960 until the mid 1980s to encourage the growth of traffic by cutting public transport services as car ownership grew.

This was perceived to be good for the UK car manufacturing industry.

This statistic is a legacy of the mindset that was established then. Compare and contrast Germany.

How ironic! We had the strategy mentioned above and I'm assuming the Germans didn't, we have the remnants of a car industry and poor public transport. The Germans have a strong car industry and a good public transport system!

 

[Uter]

I think a lot of what is planned there was origionaly planned as the Thameslink 2000 project so allthough it's welcome it's somewhat later than origionaly planned. There is a lot of work going on upgrading and extending the east london line at the moment with new services planned for may 2010, There's a new stretch of line going in from new cross gate to dalston junction and better turn round facilities at Crystal Palace, West Croydon & South Croydon.

Yup the current Thameslink programme is effectively the Thameslink 2000 project which has been delayed by years of uncertainty over the funding and numerous public inquiries. They obviously had to change the name as it so laughable now. It does highlight how difficult it is to get big engineering projects done in this country. By the time it is finished the increase in capacity it will provide, though significant, will mostly be used up just to cater for the increase in passenger numbers since the project was first mooted (I like that word. I may start using it in the present tense).

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

Where previously, for instance, you could drive in any direction along any road in the North Laine, now you can't (it's a measure incidentally that it wouldn't hurt to be introduced into Hanover).

Hear hear for one way streets in Hanover. There is a one way system between streets that link Elm Grove with Islingword Road and Queens Park Road and this should be extended right across to Albion Hill.
If I had a pound for every time I have cursed because I have had to reverse out of one of the streets I'd be able to match Tony Bloom's investment in the Albion!

Question.

Is it Queens Park Road or Queen's Park Road? I have lived in Hanover since 1981 and still don't know, have looked on two different maps and they spell it differently!

 

[Lord Bracknell]

It's Queen's Park ... so it should be Queen's Park Road.

Question of the day ... It was originally Brighton Park and was renamed in honour of a queen. Which one?

 

[The Large One]

Adelaide.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Correct ... incidentally, the city of Adelaide is famous for being a "cemetery with traffic lights".

The South Australian Opposition says a front page Gold Coast newspaper article which ridicules the idea of Adelaide hosting the Commonwealth Games is more incentive to make a bid.

Liberal leader Martin Hamilton-Smith has been urging for Adelaide to compete against the Gold Coast and bid for the 2018 games.

The Gold Coast Bulletin devoted half its front page to ridiculing Adelaide, describing it as a 'cemetery with traffic lights'.

... which brings me on to our own cemetery with traffic lights - Hove - and Uter's question about the pedestrian facilities at the junction of The Drive and Cromwell Road. I don't know the answer to this one. Apart from a bit of tinkering about with Trafalgar Road, Portslade, I only got involved in central Brighton schemes that pre-date 1997.

 

[Brovion]

Well I do currently push a pram around on a regular basis an I actually appreciate the build outs, but I guess that's just me.

But they're not essential are they? We all crossed the roads quite happily before they were installed. It just means there's slightly less of the side road for you to cross between pavements, and the bits that stick out into Ditchling Road serve no purpose from a pedestrian point of view. And before someone says that it's for 'safety' I'd like to point out that in Ditchling Road there were more accidents involving pedestrians in the twelve months since the 'improvements' than there were in the twelve months prior to them.

Also I notice the 'improvements' didn't get as far as Osbourne Road. Hopefully they've run out of money.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

On the subject of Five Ways, does anyone know why traffic going up Stanford Avenue isn't allowed to turn left into Preston Drove?

 

[The Large One]

On the subject of Five Ways, does anyone know why traffic going up Stanford Avenue isn't allowed to turn left into Preston Drove?

Yes. Don't know who though.

 

[Brovion]

On the subject of Five Ways, does anyone know why traffic going up Stanford Avenue isn't allowed to turn left into Preston Drove?

No, and even I can't pin that one on the council's current anti-car policies. It's been like that since I moved into the area.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

It's Queen's Park ... so it should be Queen's Park Road.

Question of the day ... It was originally Brighton Park and was renamed in honour of a queen. Which one?

Thank you M'Lord.