New Road 'car and pedestrian sharing' - does it work?

[Cheeky Monkey]

It's a nightmare cycling along New Road now because people are legitimately in the road, thus denying us our basic right to clip as many lemmings as we can in the ribs with the ends of our handlebars as we speed past, while at the same time berating them for walking in the road. From now on I am going to stick to Bond Street, where 'clipping and berating' is still a legitimate sport for us two-wheeled fiends and targets are aplenty.

 

[Gary Leeds]

I cannot see how the council can allow a shared use road and deem it safe when the same people shut the bus contraflow at the Old Steine, which has been there 20 years, is fenced off to stop pedestrians from crossing there and they deem it unsafe?

 

[folkestonesgull]

Shared spaces and home zones in residential areas work very well and have done throughout Europe for years giving priority for pedestrians and slowing drivers down to a low safe speed by taking them out of their comfort zone. There is an interesting shared space in ashford where the ring road used to be, this has completely changed the dynamics of the town centre. Evidence shows share surfaces are far safer than standard roads with barriers seperating different road users. They look a lot better too

 

[Uter]

If anyone thinks the council are on some sort of crusade to persecute car drivers I suggest they actually take the time to walk, cycle or take the bus around Brighton and Hove and then see if they actually have the same opinion.

Ever tried walking alone King's Road and crossing Black Lion St? No point waiting for the green man because there isn't one. You have to wait patiently and then using your skill and judgement decide when the traffic lights you can't see are probably red and then walk at a brisk pace across the road (3 lanes) nervously checking over your shoulder for any traffic turning in from behind you.

Ever walked along the narrow pavements in the Lanes and, whilst squeezing past an oncoming pedestrian, felt the rush of air from a car going past inches away from you doing driven by someone who thinks just because they are doing 25 in a 30 zone it's a sensible speed despite the large numbers of people on foot?

Even been a pedestrian and come to a crossroads and found that only two of the possible four crossing points have green men? I'd like to have been in the meeting where that was decided. "Well we could put green men on all four corners, but let's save some money; they're only pedestrians." Favourite example: junction of Old Shoreham Road and the Upper Drive. Three schools in the immediate vicinity, but they still opted for the cheap option.

For decades the car has been at the forefront of transport policy and only in recent years has this been questioned and minor steps taken to create environments which don't treat other road users as second class citizens, but rather as equals.

Why does the car have to be the be at the top of the tree?

 

[Brovion]

... Why does the car have to be the be at the top of the tree?

It isn't top of the tree, it really isn't, you're about forty years behind the times. I spend most of my life as a pedestrian or bus user and for me one of the most unpleasant experiences is being on the top deck of a 26 on a baking hot day whilst it crawls through the traffic trying to reach a few hundred yards of bus lane that speeds it to the next jam. Why is it doing this? Because it's stuck in the traffic. Why has the traffic increased? Because of hundreds of schemes, big and small, designed to choke and impair car movement - and then keep cars choked on the roads by removing parking spaces. Why do people STILL insist on driving? Because they know there IS a chance of getting a parking space, and if you've got a family it's cheaper than taking the bus. Plus for some people (such as my wife as I mentioned on another thread) there really is no alternative but to drive. Why is it like this? Because no one has the guts to impose a proper solution, such as banning private cars from the city centre and establishing proper park 'n' ride schemes.

The current policy is "Let's make it harder and more expensive for people to drive into the city and then maybe they'll stop doing it." That's hardly having the car as top of the tree. The problem is that as a policy it falls badly between two stools. Either accept that the car has a role to play and try and accomodate them - or ban them completely. I'll support either policy.

 

[Uter]

It isn't top of the tree, it really isn't, you're about forty years behind the times. I spend most of my life as a pedestrian or bus user and for me one of the most unpleasant experiences is being on the top deck of a 26 on a baking hot day whilst it crawls through the traffic trying to reach a few hundred yards of bus lane that speeds it to the next jam. Why is it doing this? Because it's stuck in the traffic. Why has the traffic increased? Because of hundreds of schemes, big and small, designed to choke and impair car movement - and then keep cars choked on the roads by removing parking spaces. Why do people STILL insist on driving? Because they know there IS a chance of getting a parking space, and if you've got a family it's cheaper than taking the bus. Plus for some people (such as my wife as I mentioned on another thread) there really is no alternative but to drive. Why is it like this? Because no one has the guts to impose a proper solution, such as banning private cars from the city centre and establishing proper park 'n' ride schemes.

The current policy is "Let's make it harder and more expensive for people to drive into the city and then maybe they'll stop doing it." That's hardly having the car as top of the tree. The problem is that as a policy it falls badly between two stools. Either accept that the car has a role to play and try and accomodate them - or ban them completely. I'll support either policy.

Traffic jams have increased because car ownership and useage has increased.

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

One thing that one of our NSC town planners could clear up for me is why is there no pedestrian signal with the traffic light where you cross from Air Street onto the bottom of Dyke Road? It creates confusion for the endless stream of pedestrians crossing because you don't know when the taxis from the rank are going to pull off (because you can't see the colour of the traffic light) and it must equally be a mare for the taxi drivers picking random pedestrians off of the grilles on the front of their Skodas.

 

[Brovion]

Traffic jams have increased because car ownership and useage has increased.

Bus journeys in Brighton have also increased, so where has the extra traffic come from? And also do you really think increased car ownership is the sole cause of the jams in 21st century Brighton? Look at pictures of Brighton seafront in the 1960s, absolutely CHOKED with cars. (I'm sure someone will now find a picture showing the opposite but it did used to happen - I was in them). The solution then was to build more city-centre car parks, it would take a bold person to suggest that now.

 

[Uter]

One thing that one of our NSC town planners could clear up for me is why is there no pedestrian signal with the traffic light where you cross from Air Street onto the bottom of Dyke Road? It creates confusion for the endless stream of pedestrians crossing because you don't know when the taxis from the rank are going to pull off (because you can't see the colour of the traffic light) and it must equally be a mare for the taxi drivers picking random pedestrians off of the grilles on the front of their Skodas.

Yes, I forgotten about that one! Bloody nightmare to cross. Another example of where very little thought has been given to pedestrians. I can only imagine it was omitted on the grounds that the improvement in safety didn't justify the cost, but it doesn't feel very safe to me. I'm almost inspired to contact the council to get to the bottom of this.

 

[sten_super]

It isn't top of the tree, it really isn't, you're about forty years behind the times. I spend most of my life as a pedestrian or bus user and for me one of the most unpleasant experiences is being on the top deck of a 26 on a baking hot day whilst it crawls through the traffic trying to reach a few hundred yards of bus lane that speeds it to the next jam. Why is it doing this? Because it's stuck in the traffic. Why has the traffic increased? Because of hundreds of schemes, big and small, designed to choke and impair car movement - and then keep cars choked on the roads by removing parking spaces. Why do people STILL insist on driving? Because they know there IS a chance of getting a parking space, and if you've got a family it's cheaper than taking the bus. Plus for some people (such as my wife as I mentioned on another thread) there really is no alternative but to drive. Why is it like this? Because no one has the guts to impose a proper solution, such as banning private cars from the city centre and establishing proper park 'n' ride schemes.

The current policy is "Let's make it harder and more expensive for people to drive into the city and then maybe they'll stop doing it." That's hardly having the car as top of the tree. The problem is that as a policy it falls badly between two stools. Either accept that the car has a role to play and try and accomodate them - or ban them completely. I'll support either policy.

This seems to be the case across much of the country. Instead of having the balls to actually ban cars from city/town centres and having a decent P'n'R scheme, the majority of cities instead prefer to just make life more difficult/expensive for car drivers. I must say Cambridge actually isn't too bad, because of the propensity for locals to cycle everywhere. However, if you want to get anywhere around the city centre between 8-9:30 am or 4:30-7:00 pm then you don't want to be in a car.

 

[Uter]

Bus journeys in Brighton have also increased, so where has the extra traffic come from? And also do you really think increased car ownership is the sole cause of the jams in 21st century Brighton? Look at pictures of Brighton seafront in the 1960s, absolutely CHOKED with cars. (I'm sure someone will now find a picture showing the opposite but it did used to happen - I was in them). The solution then was to build more city-centre car parks, it would take a bold person to suggest that now.

Took a while to find it:

Year Private cars registered in the UK (Millions)
1950 1.979
1960 4.900
1970 9.971
1980 14.660
1990 17.742
2000 23.196
2008 27.021

In answer to your question: yes, I think a 5 fold increase in the number of cars around since 1960 is by a long, long way the single biggest cause of jams in 21st century Brighton.

 

[Uter]

Took a while to find it:

Year Private cars registered in the UK (Millions)
1950 1.979
1960 4.900
1970 9.971
1980 14.660
1990 17.742
2000 23.196
2008 27.021

In answer to your question: yes, I think a 5 fold increase in the number of cars around since 1960 is by a long, long way the single biggest cause of jams in 21st century Brighton.

Post script:

Year Buses registered in the UK (thousands)
1950 123
1960 84
1970 93
1980 110
1990 115
2000 86
2008 111

On the other hand the number of buses has only increased by one third since 1960 so I think you can discount this as a major factor.

 

[Brovion]

Post script:

Year Buses registered in the UK (thousands)
1950 123
1960 84
1970 93
1980 110
1990 115
2000 86
2008 111

On the other hand the number of buses has only increased by one third since 1960 so I think you can discount this as a major factor.

I think you've missed the point and are waffling a bit now, Firstly I said bus JOURNEYS not number of buses. One bus with 60 people is 60 journeys. And I also said in Brighton, not nationally. Increasing bus use was one of the Council's aims and that has been achieved.

Also yes, car ownership has gone up, but like I said Brighton was congested in the 1960s when car ownership wasn't a fraction of what it is now. So with this increased ownership why make it even harder to drive and park? It's a bit like having a big crowd wanting to get into a theatre and thinking the solution is to narrow the entrance and reduce the capacity.

 

[Gwylan]

Also yes, car ownership has gone up, but like I said Brighton was congested in the 1960s when car ownership wasn't a fraction of what it is now. So with this increased ownership why make it even harder to drive and park? It's a bit like having a big crowd wanting to get into a theatre and thinking the solution is to narrow the entrance and reduce the capacity.

Surely you've answered your own question. If it was congested in the 60s and there's now increased car ownership then it's obvious why it's harder to drive and park.

The theatre example is a good one. If there are more people wanting to see a popular show, then the prices go up, if it's unpopular, they go down. So, with cars, if there are more people trying to get into the city centre, then the laws of supply and demand mean that prices rise.

I saw a stat a couple of years ago (and have been trying to trace the source to see if stands up) that the UK has one of the lowest levels of car ownership in western Europe but makes the most journeys by car. That's a mindset that has to change before we can start reducing congestion.

 

[The Large One]

I think you've missed the point and are waffling a bit now, Firstly I said bus JOURNEYS not number of buses. One bus with 60 people is 60 journeys. And I also said in Brighton, not nationally. Increasing bus use was one of the Council's aims and that has been achieved.

Also yes, car ownership has gone up, but like I said Brighton was congested in the 1960s when car ownership wasn't a fraction of what it is now. So with this increased ownership why make it even harder to drive and park? It's a bit like having a big crowd wanting to get into a theatre and thinking the solution is to narrow the entrance and reduce the capacity.

So what's your solution?

 

[Father Jack]

I like it but it does make a good rat run for taxis. I would never dream of driving along there in my car though. I don't see why they don't just fully pedestrianise it and make taxis go furthur up the road and turn right after the car park entrance if they need to get on to North Street.

As an aside, does anyone else think that the number of taxis operating in this town is getting a little bit ridiculous (though you can never get one when you need one). Every time I drive past the station they are in a queue all the way down Queens Road sometimes blocking off the road at the lights outside the station. Makes me MAD.

There was something in The Argus about that a week or so back, Taxi drivers are complaining because network rail have sold hundreds more permits to collect there then they have spaces for the taxi's to go.

 

[Uter]

So with this increased ownership why make it even harder to drive and park?

Because not everyone has a car or wants to drive into town. No schemes are introduced solely with the intention of limiting car use. They are done to enhance other areas of transport that have historically been less well served with only a limited space to do so.

 

[Brovion]

Surely you've answered your own question. If it was congested in the 60s and there's now increased car ownership then it's obvious why it's harder to drive and park.
.

But it isn't just the ownership! That's the point I was trying to make. Just taking Brighton on its own it's far too simplistic to say "well car ownership has increased that's why congestion has increased". According to my wife (who drives round Brighton in her job as a district nurse) the problem has got significantly worse in the last year due to traffic lights and bus lanes (lewes Road and Vogue Gyratory causing a lot of problems)

So what's your solution?

I'd close down all the city centre car parks and make all the roads in the city centre 'shared space'. I build two big out-of-town park 'n' ride car parks; one at the A23/A27 junction and the other on the A27 at Falmer (behind the stadium). I'd make all the suburbs residents-only parking and the permits would be £150 a year for the first car, £500 for the second and £3000 for the third. I'd also see about removing diesel buses and re-introducing an electric tram network, but that's just the transport geek in me coming out.

 

[The Large One]

I'd close down all the city centre car parks and make all the roads in the city centre 'shared space'. I build two big out-of-town park 'n' ride car parks; one at the A23/A27 junction and the other on the A27 at Falmer (behind the stadium). I'd make all the suburbs residents-only parking and the permits would be £150 a year for the first car, £500 for the second and £3000 for the third. I'd also see about removing diesel buses and re-introducing an electric tram network, but that's just the transport geek in me coming out.

Interesting. Doesn't really cover all the issues though.

You'd have to have no sense of hospitable community with that scheme.

 

[Uter]

But it isn't just the ownership! That's the point I was trying to make. Just taking Brighton on its own it's far too simplistic to say "well car ownership has increased that's why congestion has increased". According to my wife (who drives round Brighton in her job as a district nurse) the problem has got significantly worse in the last year due to traffic lights and bus lanes (lewes Road and Vogue Gyratory causing a lot of problems)

I'd close down all the city centre car parks and make all the roads in the city centre 'shared space'. I build two big out-of-town park 'n' ride car parks; one at the A23/A27 junction and the other on the A27 at Falmer (behind the stadium). I'd make all the suburbs residents-only parking and the permits would be £150 a year for the first car, £500 for the second and £3000 for the third. I'd also see about removing diesel buses and re-introducing an electric tram network, but that's just the transport geek in me coming out.

Blimey, that's quite a radical transport manifesto! I love the shared space in New Road and would certainly like to see a few more like it. I'd like to see trams back too, but I can't see that happening for the foreseeable future.