[Football] Millwall fans covering themselves in glory again

[BadFish]

They are still two different things though.

Something being (or not being) political doesnt automatically make it right or wrong. Its a case by case thing.

My problem with the kneeling is not that it is political but that its not genuine.

A lot of people pretend to give a shit, very few do and I dont blame them. Its the "starving children in Africa" thing in a new, more hip yankee package.

From studies we know that people are more keen to appear moral than to appear intelligent, which is too bad. Because the intelligent person could say: humans are generally not capable of feeling true emotions to people we have no relation to. We say we care about the starving kids in Africa, if we meet a starving kid or in some cases even from seeing pictures, we feel sad about it, we feel empathy.

But the x number of kids who starve to death every day that we are aware of by numbers but lack personal relation to? We dont really give a ****. Very few lay awake at night thinking about American police brutality or starvation in some village in Swaziland.

The kneeling gesture represents exactly that part of human nature, just like a lot of attitudes in here do: its not about solving the problem, its about pretending (inwards and outwards) to be upset in order to look and feel good about themselves. Its just false.

Likewise, its false from the other side. "I care about freedom of speech", "I care about football being free from politics", "What about white lives"... its the same shit as in the example above: some kind of urge to look moral, but with a different set of prerequisites. It sounds good, it feels good, it means nothing. Very few are awake at night worrying about politics in football or some random white dudes freedom of speech. No one cares.

What people care about are what they can see, hear or touch. I havent met anyone from this forum IRL but I know that one death here affects my emotions more than a 100 000 deaths in St. Elsewhere. And I'm not the only one.

So instead of having this knee taking shit that just serves as some kind of pie throwing referee or some kind of moralism catwalk that will always turn out more polarising than useful, lets cut the crap and go genuine. Humans, in general, likes to solve problems. To feel helpful. To be social. If we start a thread on this forum about concrete and constructive ways to decrease racism a) theoretically and b) practically, it would likely be far more constructive and helpful than six months of this knee stuff.

TLDR: The gestures, the symbolism, the people riding their high ****ing horses pretending to care about what happens to every single soul on planet earth and whatnot, just **** it all really, it leads to nowhere at best. 1. Stop the moral catwalk. 2. Build the new genuinely helpful anti-racism that will be genuinely engaging to participate in on other grounds than feeding the own ego. 3. Activate.

How have you come to the conclusion that the gesture is not genuine? You have no idea what people have experienced in their lives.

The taking of the knee in the Premier League started because the players wanted to do it. Given that there are many black footballers in the Premier League I am going to go out on a limb and assume that many of them have experienced racism in their lives, and if they haven't then their parents or family probably would have done. Their protest has nothing to do with stuff happening if far off lands, they are to do with things that the players, their teammates or their families have experienced in their lives.

Here is Harry Kane talking about it

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...-take-a-knee-black-lives-matter-b1764831.html

If you are lucky enough to feel that racism is something that happens to other people then you should count yourself lucky. for some people, it is part and parcel of their daily lives. I am one who counts myself lucky, aside from the odd pommie jibe, but I fully support those who are affected by this stuff in their efforts to make a difference.

Each to their own though. Maybe it won't solve the problem, maybe it will draw some attention and spark some discussion. Either way, if people are trying to do something they have my support. Apart from taking 10 seconds at the beginnings of a football match, I don't really see the downside.

 

[BadFish]

Racism is a difficult subject for the many who have not experienced it first hand to respond to in the right way.
At Monday’s match I expect players of all ethnic backgrounds will take the knee in support of their teammates.
What is the appropriate response from the crowd?
Personally I would be happy to show my solidarity with the players but, how is that best done.
Please discuss

I don't think you need to do anything, just try not to boo

 

[HCxUK]

It's really simple, if you choose to boo a gesture that has the explicit meaning that black livers matter, you are a racist. There is no argument against this.

 

[wellquickwoody]

No. Only a racist **** would boo it. Players wanting to highlight inequality - how can you boo that?
The reasons some people give are just to hide behind so they don't have to face the reality that they are racist.

Ahh, the old Plooks ploy of ‘You don’t agree with me so you are a ****’.

Grow up you childish little moron.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

While I broadly agree with you post. Is it not still the case that black people are far more likely to be stopped and searched in London?

Sent from my Redmi Note 7 using Tapatalk

Yes, just a few days ago, a nurse driving to work, in his uniform, was stopped by the Met, and asked how he could afford to buy his car.
He hadn’t committed a traffic offence, and it is nobody’s business how he got his car. It was fairly obvious he was a working man. Yes, he is black.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I disagree that only racists would boo. I think they were booing the ‘act’ of kneeling itself and not the reason for it. You hardly ever hear fans collectively booing black players anymore so why would they boo when players are taking the knee and then remain silent for the rest of the game in which black players are participating? I’m not saying they were right to do it, but I don’t think they were booing to be racist, I think it was their way of saying enough is enough, we’ve heard your message, now it’s time to move on.

They were booing the ‘act of kneeling’ what as a protest against flexible joints?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

You seem incapable of understanding the difference between politics and business decisions.
Also the fact you likened BHAFC working within and with the community as a political decision still marks you out as someone who is clueless about our club, where we have come from, wtf we had to endure to get where we are and what we are trying to be going forward.

Working in the Community was a political decision to ensure we got planning permission.

 

[darkwolf666]

Racism is a difficult subject for the many who have not experienced it first hand to respond to in the right way.
At Monday’s match I expect players of all ethnic backgrounds will take the knee in support of their teammates.
What is the appropriate response from the crowd?
Personally I would be happy to show my solidarity with the players but, how is that best done.
Please discuss

In light of the Millwall response to the knee I would suggest applause would be the best response, also gives people the silent option to opt out...

 

[Icy Gull]

How would you feel about a player or players NOT taking the knee? Can’t say that I’ve noticed any players not doing it but in F1 quite a few don’t

Would you boo the solitary footballer who didn’t take the knee? (And has not taking the knee happened in any games?)

 

[darkwolf666]

Working in the Community was a political decision to ensure we got planning permission.

That’s more than a tad disingenuous towards the club’s modern ethos...

 

[Bold Seagull]

How would you feel about a player or players NOT taking the knee? Can’t say that I’ve noticed any players not doing it but in F1 quite a few don’t

Would you boo the solitary footballer who didn’t take the knee? (And has not taking the knee happened in any games?)

It’s panto season I suppose.

Why would you boo either way? Your players are about to start a game, they don’t really know what the crowd is booing for. I’m there to watch them play football. If some want to kneel, some don’t, I’m happy to let them get on with it.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

That’s more than a tad disingenuous ous towards the club’s modern ethos...

It was because we wanted Amex onboard. It wasn’t the present ownership at the time.
I’m not saying it was the only motive, but it was part of it.

 

[Perfidious Albion]

Personally, I think the point has been made now and we should move on . But I respect that others feel differently. From their body language I guess that a lot of black players take it seriously. Anyway, boo it? ...Never ! That is a horrible thing to do.
As for Milwall, Those *********** are the sons of those Milwall supporters who caused such trouble in the 70s-80s ......

 

[darkwolf666]

It was because we wanted Amex onboard. It wasn’t the present ownership at the time.
I’m not saying it was the only motive, but it was part of it.

So what are you saying, the club’s current ethos only arrived when Tony Bloom took over? Again, I would contest that. There was a seed change within the club as a result of the dark days of Archer, Belotti, et al.

No club is perfect, but to suggest we only carried out work in the wider community just to get the ground approved is frankly insulting to the good work that many have done over the years...

 

[Thunder Bolt]

So what are you saying, the club’s current ethos only arrived when Tony Bloom took over? Again, I would contest that. There was a seed change within the club as a result of the dark days of Archer, Belotti, et al.

No club is perfect, but to suggest we only carried out work in the wider community just to get the ground approved is frankly insulting to the good work that many have done over the years...

You have conveniently ignored my second sentence. I am not saying it was the only motive but it was certainly part of it.

 

[BadFish]

I have learnt one thing on this tread.

People ain't half touchy about the AITC program.

 

[Icy Gull]

It’s panto season I suppose.

Why would you boo either way? Your players are about to start a game, they don’t really know what the crowd is booing for. I’m there to watch them play football. If some want to kneel, some don’t, I’m happy to let them get on with it.

I don’t even boo when the team turns in a half hearted shit performance and loses to teams like Sheffield Wednesday so I won’t be booing whether players stand or kneel, but then I don’t feel that strongly about it either way (the kneeling not the shit Albion performances )

I just wondered if not kneeling would wind people up as much as kneeling does for some.

 

[McTavish]

I disagree that only racists would boo. I think they were booing the ‘act’ of kneeling itself and not the reason for it. You hardly ever hear fans collectively booing black players anymore so why would they boo when players are taking the knee and then remain silent for the rest of the game in which black players are participating? I’m not saying they were right to do it, but I don’t think they were booing to be racist, I think it was their way of saying enough is enough, we’ve heard your message, now it’s time to move on.

Booing black players because they are black is now socially unacceptable and may get you thrown out of the ground. Booing "taking the knee" allows racists (and the hard of thinking) to justify their racism with the ingenuous excuse of "'cos it's Marxism etc".

 

[Brian Fantana]

Very hypothetical question in my case but no I would never boo anyone with the exception of some dirty player from the opponents. Not the team, not the ref, not the arrangement, and I wouldnt boo any statement/theme like BLM or the mental health thing they did last year at some point or if there was a silent minute to honour someone (even if I didnt like the person).

I dont believe in behaving like that, I dont see the value. Personally I dont give a shit about some dead politican getting honored or if someone wants to make a cute little talk about the climate or whatever, but I wouldnt boo it. "Oh they are expressing opinions, my ego needs me to make some noise to override theirs". Its ****ing primitive.

I dont boo anyone trying to do the best for the team or the world regardless if they are doing it badly or not doing what I personally believe to be the right thing. Its not a way of improving anything.

This.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I don’t even boo when the team turns in a half hearted shit performance and loses to teams like Sheffield Wednesday so I won’t be booing whether players stand or kneel, but then I don’t feel that strongly about it either way (the kneeling not the shit Albion performances )

I just wondered if not kneeling would wind people up as much as kneeling does for some.

Never boo the shirt! Completely agree. I’m sure someone can get wound up somewhere.