[Football] Millwall fans covering themselves in glory again

[Swansman]

I don't consider myself naive - but arbitrarily announcing that AITC is some kind of PR political box-ticking exercise by BHAFC takes cynicism to another level. If you want to associate yourself with that viewpoint, then be my guest. But having personally taken part in activities to raise funds for AITC, I find your statement downright offensive.

Except I didnt say that. I said it is politics, I didnt say it is PR, I didnt say it is some lazy box-ticking exercise. It seems like you have a very narrow definition of the word politics. Making a decision to organize help other people is a political decision.

It has nothing to do with "PR" or "box-ticking", the decision to organise yourselves to help others is in itself politics. Not government politics, not party politics, not PR politics, not left- or right politics, but still politics in the sense that you want change the relations between groups/people - in your case, you want to help those that need help. Making the decision to do so is politics. If you stop adding a load of negative value and meaning to the word, you dont have to be offended.

 

[pastafarian]

I disagree that only racists would boo.

Well you obviously never got the memo.
There can be no other possible explanation for criticising taking the knee other than the critic must be a racist.

 

[pastafarian]

I have a lot of clue about the club, not as much as some but still, but it really doesnt matter in this case. Football is still filled with politics. You could support the worst team in the world or the biggest, it is still politics. Everything from the fact that people are allowed to play football to whoever is sponsoring the shirts or who produced the footballs, all politics.
.

You seem incapable of understanding the difference between politics and business decisions.
Also the fact you likened BHAFC working within and with the community as a political decision still marks you out as someone who is clueless about our club, where we have come from, wtf we had to endure to get where we are and what we are trying to be going forward.

 

[BadFish]

I think its getting boring now and doesn't need to be done at every game in the premier League and football league you don't see it at grassroots level football just my opinion and I know I will probably get slammed

I seem to remember that it was the players who orchestrated this action. I for one am happy to let them decide when it is appropriate to stop.

 

[Swansman]

You seem incapable of understanding the difference between politics and business decisions.
Also the fact you likened BHAFC working within and with the community as a political decision still marks you out as someone who is clueless about our club, where we have come from, wtf we had to endure to get where we are and what we are trying to be going forward.

We obviously have very different definitions of the word politics.

 

[pastafarian]

I seem to remember that it was the players who orchestrated this action. I for one am happy to let them decide when it is appropriate to stop.

It will eventually come to an end.
Probably in the best interests of everyone if its a collective decision to stop in unison
One club and their players going first and no longer taking the knee will incur the wrath of the social media mob

 

[BadFish]

We obviously have very different definitions of the word politics.

This is highly evident in reading this ongoing discussion.

 

[pastafarian]

We obviously have very different definitions of the word politics.

No we dont
You just apportion political decisions to areas where there are none.....eg BHAFC wishing to work as a community club

 

[BadFish]

It will eventually come to an end.
Probably in the best interests of everyone if its a collective decision to stop in unison
One club and their players going first and no longer taking the knee will incur the wrath of the social media mob

Indeed, It started in unison so no reason it shouldn't finish the same. Was it club captains that made the decision together? If so it should be easy enough to coordinate the end of it when appropriate.

 

[Swansman]

No we dont
You just apportion political decisions to areas where there are none.....eg BHAFC wishing to work as a community club

Yes we do.

From how I define politics, it is indeed a political decision to work as a community club. Since you seem to disagree, we obviously have different definitions of the word politics.

 

[BadFish]

No we dont
You just apportion political decisions to areas where there are none.....eg BHAFC wishing to work as a community club

I don't agree with his definition of the word but he has clearly outlined what he believes it to be.

And the AITC activities fit within his parameters.

 

[pastafarian]

I don't agree with his definition of the word but he has clearly outlined what he believes it to be.

And the AITC activities fit within his parameters.

Point taken, his definition is indeed incorrect which is why i cant agree with his belief the Albion working in the community is a political decision.

 

[Swansman]

I don't agree with his definition of the word but he has clearly outlined what he believes it to be.

And the AITC activities fit within his parameters.

Yup. One of the most commonly used definitions of politics is the one made by Adrian Leftwich:

"Politics comprises all the activities of co-operation, negotiation and conflict within and between societies, whereby people go about organizing the use, production or distribution of human, natural and other resources in the course of the production and reproduction of their biological and social life."

Its close enough to how I define the word as well - most things that involve more than human is politics.

Point taken, his definition is indeed incorrect which is why i cant agree with his belief the Albion working in the community is a political decision.

What is the correct definition then? Its been a subject of debate for hundreds of years, so it would be interesting to finally hear the "right" definition.

 

[BadFish]

Yup. One of the most commonly used definitions of politics is the one made by Adrian Leftwich:

"Politics comprises all the activities of co-operation, negotiation and conflict within and between societies, whereby people go about organizing the use, production or distribution of human, natural and other resources in the course of the production and reproduction of their biological and social life."

Its close enough to how I define the word as well - most things that involve more than human is politics.



What is the correct definition then? Its been a subject of debate for hundreds of years, so it would be interesting to finally hear the "right" definition.

Thanks for the information, this is better than the definitions that I found, the ones I found included the more formal 'government' type of politics. I suspect that others were thinking of similar.

 

[pastafarian]

What is the correct definition then? Its been a subject of debate for hundreds of years, so it would be interesting to finally hear the "right" definition.

BHAFC working within and with the community is not a political decision, I very much doubt football clubs re-focussing their stance over the past years to be more community inclusive has had that decision definition debated for hundreds of years

 

[Swansman]

BHAFC working within and with the community is not a political decision, I very much doubt football clubs re-focussing their stance over the past years to be more community inclusive has had that decision definition debated for hundreds of years

I give up.

 

[Klaas]

I seem to remember that it was the players who orchestrated this action. I for one am happy to let them decide when it is appropriate to stop.

Absolutely. I wonder if the booing and the choruses of 'it's gone to far'/'it's boring' will harden their (knelt) stance. If I were a black man, taking a knee for all of 10 seconds only to hear some/many ***** in the crowd boo I'd probably want to keep doing it. And as a white man, if I were lucky enough to also be shit hot at football I'd like to support my colleagues.

 

[Swansman]

Look you two, it doesn't really matter what your own personal definition or whatever is: if AITC is political so is the knee, but then you are ok with AITC so the knee is ok as well.
If you don't think AITC is political then neither is the knee, so the knee is ok as well
Either way and by either definition it is ok.

They are still two different things though.

Something being (or not being) political doesnt automatically make it right or wrong. Its a case by case thing.

My problem with the kneeling is not that it is political but that its not genuine.

A lot of people pretend to give a shit, very few do and I dont blame them. Its the "starving children in Africa" thing in a new, more hip yankee package.

From studies we know that people are more keen to appear moral than to appear intelligent, which is too bad. Because the intelligent person could say: humans are generally not capable of feeling true emotions to people we have no relation to. We say we care about the starving kids in Africa, if we meet a starving kid or in some cases even from seeing pictures, we feel sad about it, we feel empathy.

But the x number of kids who starve to death every day that we are aware of by numbers but lack personal relation to? We dont really give a ****. Very few lay awake at night thinking about American police brutality or starvation in some village in Swaziland.

The kneeling gesture represents exactly that part of human nature, just like a lot of attitudes in here do: its not about solving the problem, its about pretending (inwards and outwards) to be upset in order to look and feel good about themselves. Its just false.

Likewise, its false from the other side. "I care about freedom of speech", "I care about football being free from politics", "What about white lives"... its the same shit as in the example above: some kind of urge to look moral, but with a different set of prerequisites. It sounds good, it feels good, it means nothing. Very few are awake at night worrying about politics in football or some random white dudes freedom of speech. No one cares.

What people care about are what they can see, hear or touch. I havent met anyone from this forum IRL but I know that one death here affects my emotions more than a 100 000 deaths in St. Elsewhere. And I'm not the only one.

So instead of having this knee taking shit that just serves as some kind of pie throwing referee or some kind of moralism catwalk that will always turn out more polarising than useful, lets cut the crap and go genuine. Humans, in general, likes to solve problems. To feel helpful. To be social. If we start a thread on this forum about concrete and constructive ways to decrease racism a) theoretically and b) practically, it would likely be far more constructive and helpful than six months of this knee stuff.

TLDR: The gestures, the symbolism, the people riding their high ****ing horses pretending to care about what happens to every single soul on planet earth and whatnot, just **** it all really, it leads to nowhere at best. 1. Stop the moral catwalk. 2. Build the new genuinely helpful anti-racism that will be genuinely engaging to participate in on other grounds than feeding the own ego. 3. Activate.

 

[Brighton Rocker]

Racism is a difficult subject for the many who have not experienced it first hand to respond to in the right way.
At Monday’s match I expect players of all ethnic backgrounds will take the knee in support of their teammates.
What is the appropriate response from the crowd?
Personally I would be happy to show my solidarity with the players but, how is that best done.
Please discuss

 

[jackalbion]

Can we not just remove the word 'politics' from a gesture that is simply...RIGHT ?

Forget politics. This is something far bigger. It transcends politics IMO (which, lets face it, has hardly been a shining beacon in our recent times).

I think we have different definitions of the word politics my guy, so we’ll have to agree to disagree there.