[News] Middle East conflict

[heathgate]

Meanwhile the BBC are following an interesting and quite extraordinary story about the alleged manufacturer of the pagers that blew up yesterday

Discussion points I am hearing through various people closer to it than most of us.... Iran buys pagers en masse from a source, eventually the supplier, Taiwan in this case, ships and this gets intercepted by Israel, 'adjusted' for operational use, continued on its way and distributed for Hezbollah use,... about to get outed, boom... such is the world we live in.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The objective of the IRA and Sin Fein was to create a united Irish State. The objective of the Tamil Tigers was to create an independent Tamil State. Neither of those terrorist organisations are still operating militarily but neither has achieved their original objective.

The Tamil Tigers did not reach a negotiated resolution. There were defeated militarily.

Sinn Fein is now the largest party in Northern Ireland, but they and the IRA never had sufficient traction in the South to sustain a realistic chance of military victory in the North. They knew soon enough they could never win 'the war'. Catholics in the north were discriminated against, but changes in the law particularly relating to discrimination in the workplace ultimately leading to the measure of independence enjoyed by Ulster has somewhat diffused the anger that fueled popular support for the IRA in the Catholic community. Ultimately the desire was to live and let live.

Hezbollah and Hamas in contrast want to remove all the Jews 'from the river to the sea'. They don't have an objective that can be negotiated.

The Palestinians want their land back (Palestine, or Israel as we now call it). Israel is not going to let them have it. This is not something that time and common sense is going to resolve.

 

[aolstudios]

This will yield Mossad good identity and other intelligence on Hezbollah activists

Good point

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Israel has been attacked by Egypt more than once but now there is peace between them, as there is with Jordan. It is possible.

With respect, Jordan and Egypt are not Iran.

Alright, granted that there has to be a solution, what, apart from the passage of time, and the replacement of angry old fundamentalist settler Jews and rabid Islamist misogynist 'scholars' as they die of old age with a young modern aspirational latte-drinking cosmopolitan elite, do you imagine will turn the tide?

 

[aftershavedave]

There isn't much that they don't know... they of course miss the odd operational detail like we saw last year, but Mossad and the other very efficient Israeli agencies are generally on top of most major Islamist organisations.

the "odd operational detail" like a planned incursion? muppet indeed

 

[Seagull58]

The Tamil Tigers did not reach a negotiated resolution. There were defeated militarily.

Sinn Fein is now the largest party in Northern Ireland, but they and the IRA never had sufficient traction in the South to sustain a realistic chance of military victory in the North. They knew soon enough they could never win 'the war'. Catholics in the north were discriminated against, but changes in the law particularly relating to discrimination in the workplace ultimately leading to the measure of independence enjoyed by Ulster has somewhat diffused the anger that fueled popular support for the IRA in the Catholic community. Ultimately the desire was to live and let live.

Hezbollah and Hamas in contrast want to remove all the Jews 'from the river to the sea'. They don't have an objective that can be negotiated.

The Palestinians want their land back (Palestine, or Israel as we now call it). Israel is not going to let them have it. This is not something that time and common sense is going to resolve.

Yes, I'm aware that the Tigers were defeated and effectively ceased to exist. As I said in an earlier post, terrorist/freedom fighter organisations stop operating for various reasons: some achieve their objective politically, some renounce violence and adopt a political strategy to work towards their objective, some change their objective, and some are effectively destroyed.

 

[Seagull58]

With respect, Jordan and Egypt are not Iran.

Alright, granted that there has to be a solution, what, apart from the passage of time, and the replacement of angry old fundamentalist settler Jews and rabid Islamist misogynist 'scholars' as they die of old age with a young modern aspirational latte-drinking cosmopolitan elite, do you imagine will turn the tide?

The PLO renounced violence and changed its objectives. There is a precedent.

Founded in 1964, it initially sought to establish an Arab state over the entire territory of the former Mandatory Palestine, advocating the elimination of Israel. However, in 1993, the PLO recognized Israeli sovereignty with the Oslo Accords, and now only seeks to establish an independent state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, the former territory of which has been militarily occupied by Israel since the 1967 Arab–Israeli War.

 

[borat]

Far too late and don't expect it to pass but Bernie is "trying"

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Supposing it was Ukraine doing it in Russia and effectively immobilising Putin's chain of command and, in doing so, 2 children and a couple of dozen civilians were killed?

You are describing a hypothetical strategic attack (in Ukraine) on an invading and occupying force intent on invading further.

Hezbollah in Lebanon is not an invading and occupying force in Israel, albeit it would probably like to be, but isn't strong enough.

I would argue that Israel is bound to do what it can to neutralize Hezbollah, albeit this seems to be little more than a wheeze designed to amuse elements of Israeli society rather than achieve anything lasting.

Anyway, I wasn't aware that the thread required anyone to take sides on this issue.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The PLO renounced violence and changed its objectives. There is a precedent.

Founded in 1964, it initially sought to establish an Arab state over the entire territory of the former Mandatory Palestine, advocating the elimination of Israel. However, in 1993, the PLO recognized Israeli sovereignty with the Oslo Accords, and now only seeks to establish an independent state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, the former territory of which has been militarily occupied by Israel since the 1967 Arab–Israeli War.

The modern PLO were swiftly replaced by Hamas after they 'went soft', elected by the Palestinian people who apparently prefer terrorism to a negotiated settlement.

 

[trueblue]

It's not at all indiscriminate. It precisely targeted the Hezbollah operatives that use pagers distributed by their leadership. Nobody else uses those pagers.

So they only ever use them when they’re nowhere near anyone else? Plainly that’s not true.

 

[beorhthelm]

Israel blows up Hezbollah pagers/phones/walkie talkies. Acceptable or not?
Hezbollah blows up Israel government pagers/phones/walkie talkies. Acceptable or not?
Russia blows up Ukrainian pagers/phones/walkie talkies. Acceptable or not?
Ukraine blows up Russian pagers/phones/walkie talkies. Acceptable or not?
The ANC blows up South African apartheid government pagers/phones/walkie talkies. Acceptable or not?
South African apartheid givernment blows up ANC pagers/phones/walkie talkies. Acceptable or not?
UK government blows up IRA pagers/phones/walkie talkies. Acceptable or not?
IRA blows up UK government pagers/phones/walkie talkies. Acceptable or not?

which are you saying are acceptable/not acceptable then?

 

[Seagull58]

You are describing a hypothetical strategic attack (in Ukraine) on an invading and occupying force intent on invading further.

Hezbollah in Lebanon is not an invading and occupying force in Israel, albeit it would probably like to be, but isn't strong enough.

I would argue that Israel is bound to do what it can to neutralize Hezbollah, albeit this seems to be little more than a wheeze designed to amuse elements of Israeli society rather than achieve anything lasting.

Anyway, I wasn't aware that the thread required anyone to take sides on this issue.

I've been "invited" to take sides several times on this thread. I haven't done so but, in the eyes of some (not you) any failure to to do so is automatically supporting the Israeli "death machine".

 

[Seagull58]

I’m

So they only ever use them when they’re nowhere near anyone else? Plainly that’s not true.

Plainly it is true that these pagers were distributed by Hezbollah leadership to Hezbollah operatives so it wasn't an indiscriminate attack. Sabotaging mobile phones distributed amongst the civilian population would be an indiscriminate attack.

 

[Seagull58]

which are you saying are acceptable/not acceptable then?

I am asking in which circumstances is this tactic acceptable. I didn't say which ones are definitively acceptable or not.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I've been "invited" to take sides several times on this thread. I haven't done so but, in the eyes of some (not you) any failure to to do so is automatically supporting the Israeli "death machine".

Sorry to hear that.

I suspect you have been the recipient of reproach from people I have on ignore.

 

[ElectricNaz]

But it was a targetted attack. It precisely targeted the 3000 or so pagers used exclusively by Hezbollah to run their organisation.

Yup. And they could have been on buses, in shops, etc....

 

[Zeberdi]

The Palestinians want their land back (Palestine, or Israel as we now call it). Israel is not going to let them have it. This is not something that time and common sense is going to resolve.

Just to be clear about some actual facts here:

- (although I know you were referring to the lands of ‘Palestine’ prior to 1948) - but the land ‘Palestinians’ ‘want back’ NOW, is the illegally occupied Palestinian territories of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem which were invaded and occupied during the 6 Day War in 1967. It is ‘only’ the extremist jihadist fundamentaist terrorists that refuse to accept the State of Israel.

Repeatedly, Palestinians have recognised the State of Israel and it’s right to exist, as did the Palestinian Authority set up by Yasser Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin under the two Olso Accords in 1993-5.

The current and very extreme right wing government of Israel ie Netanyahu’s government propped up and literally held over a barrel by the fascist, Right Wing Religious Zionists in his coalition Government who are keeping him in power also want (‘Greater” ) Israel to be from the ‘river to the sea’ and free of Palestinians- it is a specific and well known policy objective.

The modern PLO were swiftly replaced by Hamas after they 'went soft', elected by the Palestinian people who apparently prefer terrorism to a negotiated settlement.

No they weren’t. And no, they don’t.

Hamas never agreed to the working towards a 2 State solution which was part of the condition that the PLO under Arafat’s leadership, demilitarised and laid down their arms and what Arafat agreed with Rabin. Nor has Netanyahu or his Lukid Party ever wanted a two State solution which is why they financed Hamas to counter the PA in the first place. Rabin was subsequently assassinated by far right Israeli Religious Zionists not Palestinians or Hamas.

The PA (the ‘modern PLO’ as you call it) is still operational in the West Bank and they collaborate with Israel on security issues - Hamas just booted them out of Gaza and the Palestinians in Gaza haven’t had an opportunity to vote in an election since 2006 - Hamas has ruled the Palestinian population with terror and the threat of death and torture since then if any one challenges their authority or collaborates with the Israelis.

Again, all ‘Palestinians’ are NOT ‘terrorists’ and it’s a blinkered view of the current Israeli Government to suggest that any one side has the monopoly on extremism.

 

[Seagull58]

Yup. And they could have been on buses, in shops, etc....

Here is one detonating in someone's pocket in a shop. Looks targetted to me.

Video appears to show pager explosion at Lebanon supermarket

Thousands of people were injured when pagers belonging to Hezbollah exploded almost simultaneously.

www.bbc.com

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Just to be clear about some actual facts here:

- (although I know you were referring to the lands of ‘Palestine’ prior to 1948) - but the land ‘Palestinians’ ‘want back’ NOW, is the illegally occupied Palestinian territories of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem which were invaded and occupied during the 6 Day War in 1967. It is ‘only’ the extremist jihadist fundamentaist terrorists that refuse to accept the State of Israel.

Repeatedly, Palestinians have recognised the State of Israel and it’s right to exist, as did the Palestinian Authority set up by Yasser Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin under the two Olso Accords in 1993-5.

The current and very extreme right wing government of Israel ie Netanyahu’s government propped up and literally held over a barrel by the fascist, Right Wing Religious Zionists in his coalition Government who are keeping him in power also want (‘Greater” ) Israel to be from the ‘river to the sea’ and free of Palestinians- it is a specific and well known policy objective.


No they weren’t. And no, they don’t.

Hamas never agreed to the working towards a 2 State solution which was part of the condition that the PLO under Arafat’s leadership, demilitarised and laid down their arms and what Arafat agreed with Rabin. Nor has Netanyahu or his Lukid Party ever wanted a two State solution which is why they financed Hamas to counter the PA in the first place. Rabin was subsequently assassinated by far right Israeli Religious Zionists not Palestinians or Hamas.

The PA (the ‘modern PLO’ as you call it) is still operational in the West Bank and they collaborate with Israel on security issues - Hamas just booted them out of Gaza and the Palestinians in Gaza haven’t had an opportunity to vote in an election since 2015 - Hamas has ruled the Palestinian population with terror and the threat of death and torture if any one challenges their authority or collaborates with the Israelis.

Again, all ‘Palestinians’ are NOT ‘terrorists’ and it’s a blinkered view of the current Israeli Government to suggest that any one side has the monopoly on extremism.

I said Hamas were elected.

"In 2006 Palestinian legislative election, Hamas secured a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council by campaigning on promises of a corruption-free government and advocating for resistance as a means to liberate Palestine from Israeli occupation."

I didn't say all Palestinians are terrorists.

The rest of what you wrote is not a contradiction of anything I wrote.