Ian Tomlinson,unlawful killing.

[clapham_gull]

I get the impression there would be far less sympathy on this board if a policeman was killed by a crazed protester.

Have to disagree. Read the threads on the student protests (or any protest generally) and will find the tone of NSC overall is more home counties than Tooting Popular Front.

There's a lot of generalising about the police on this thread and a hell of a lot of negativity towards them, but in terms of police brutality ours are probably one of the most placid forces in the world.

Is there ? - the odd generalisation but generally criticism directed towards the Officer rather than The Force.

I don't really care what individual police officers get up to in other parts of the world and I'm not concerned about our Police generally. I'm more concerned about this one. Thankfully other Police Officers were as well and their evidence helped lead to the correct decision being taken.

It appears the Officer was having a personal protest of his own that day and God help anyone (protester, cameraman or drunk newspaper salesman) who got in his way.

 

[tezz79]

Intent. If you smash somebody's skull with a baseball bat you've got to assume there's a good chance they might die or be brain-damaged.

I don't believe that PC was intent on causing any physical trauma to Tomlinson other than some cuts and bruises.

The officer is clearly in the wrong. But when you're policing a G20 protest there's a good chance you'll have to use physical force at some stage, and then it becomes a complete lottery for the police.I get the impression there would be far less sympathy on this board if a policeman was killed by a crazed protester.

There's a lot of generalising about the police on this thread and a hell of a lot of negativity towards them, but in terms of police brutality ours are probably one of the most placid forces in the world.

I think the majority of them do a great job & I think a lot (not all) of the protestors are pathetic sheep who if asked probably wouldn't have much of an idea what they were protesting about & just like to say they were there causing shit, howether the officer was acting as bad as the violent protestors & ended up killing a man that had his hands in his pockets, his back to the officer & had no part in the protests so therefore he should be held accountable.
And I would be livid if some musty protester killed either a male or female police officer btw

 

[The Spanish]

There's a lot of generalising about the police on this thread and a hell of a lot of negativity towards them, but in terms of police brutality ours are probably one of the most placid forces in the world.

they will also tell you the time go evenin all and give ruffians a good clip round the ear before heading back to the station for a nice cuppa. they are not placid they are a nasty team when they have their back up. believing myths just because they are received wisdom doesnt make it so. plenty of other OB around the world are plenty nicer and more helpful just because ours dont have guns and are good at self mythologising doesnt mean they are all pc plum from balamory and everyone else around the world is a trigger happy crooked thug.

 

[tezz79]

Intent. If you smash somebody's skull with a baseball bat you've got to assume there's a good chance they might die or be brain-damaged.

I don't believe that PC was intent on causing any physical trauma to Tomlinson other than some cuts and bruises.

The officer is clearly in the wrong. But when you're policing a G20 protest there's a good chance you'll have to use physical force at some stage, and then it becomes a complete lottery for the police.I get the impression there would be far less sympathy on this board if a policeman was killed by a crazed protester.

There's a lot of generalising about the police on this thread and a hell of a lot of negativity towards them, but in terms of police brutality ours are probably one of the most placid forces in the world.

Also intent would be murder, I'm not suggesting he be tried for murder I think he should face trial for manslaughter just as anyone else would if they assaulted somebody & unintentionally killed them

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Have to disagree. Read the threads on the student protests (or any protest generally) and will find the tone of NSC overall is more home counties than Tooting Popular Front.

Have to agree with that disagreement. Almsot a sense of superiority from Pav as if we are not capable of dealing with each individual situation as it comes. It is not a case of being Us vs 'the pigs'. It is about sense and sensibility.

 

[The Spanish]

Also intent would be murder, I'm not suggesting he be tried for murder I think he should face trial for manslaughter just as anyone else would if they assaulted somebody & unintentionally killed them

if you shove someone to the ground you can easily kill them or cause them serious injury if they are in poor health. try shoving an old biddy over with the full force of a grown man and see how well she is afterwards. shoving someone to the ground was not his only course of action available by a long chalk. he took a f***ing gamble that didnt come off.

 

[Pavilionaire]

they will also tell you the time go evenin all and give ruffians a good clip round the ear before heading back to the station for a nice cuppa. they are not placid they are a nasty team when they have their back up. believing myths just because they are received wisdom doesnt make it so. plenty of other OB around the world are plenty nicer and more helpful just because ours dont have guns and are good at self mythologising doesnt mean they are all pc plum from balamory and everyone else around the world is a trigger happy crooked thug.

That's bollocks. Most police forces round the world will take a bribe and wouldn't think twice to kick the shit out of someone if they felt like it.

 

[The Spanish]

That's bollocks. Most police forces round the world will take a bribe and wouldn't think twice to kick the shit out of someone if they felt like it.

theres a lot of generalising about the police on this thread eh

 

[tezz79]

if you shove someone to the ground you can easily kill them or cause them serious injury if they are in poor health. try shoving an old biddy over with the full force of a grown man and see how well she is afterwards. shoving someone to the ground was not his only course of action available by a long chalk. he took a f***ing gamble that didnt come off.

I'm agreeing with you mate, Another FM is trying to say the copper should be let off coz he didn't intend to kill him, Im saying it don't matter whever he intended to kill him or not, the fact is he died so the copper should be punished... Read it all back properly mate

 

[clapham_gull]

I wouldn't expect a Police Office to act like an angel is such a situation and I accept that these days protesters are far more savvy and know exactly which pressure points to push. I can imagine in certain situations it can be difficult to distinguish between peaceful and aggressive protesting.

However, if you can't distinguish between an aggressive protester and a drunk newspaper salesman or an aggressive protester and a BBC cameraman, than frankly you aren't up to job.

If you are susceptible to violent behaviour (that cannot be excused as self defence or the last resort in controlling a crowd) then you are a liability to the credibility of the Police Force and a danger to the general public.

No excuse, he did it, he was out of order and he's been caught out. The Police themselves have assisted towards that conclusion.

There is absolutely no other credible interpretation of the events.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Have to agree with that disagreement. Almsot a sense of superiority from Pav as if we are not capable of dealing with each individual situation as it comes. It is not a case of being Us vs 'the pigs'. It is about sense and sensibility.

Superiority? The officer's done wrong, he should be kicked out of the force and maybe a short stretch inside, but if policemen start getting done for manslaughter for pushing a bloke over then we've got a big problem.

Who'd be a policeman dealing with lary pissed up chavs on a Friday night? I daresay there's hundreds of incidents of police using force on kids who end up staggering and falling all over the place, banging their heads off walls, pavements and tarmac.

 

[The Spanish]

I'm agreeing with you mate, Another FM is trying to say the copper should be let off coz he didn't intend to kill him, Im saying it don't matter whever he intended to kill him or not, the fact is he died so the copper should be punished... Read it all back properly mate

no i am simply picking up the baton i am not misunderstanding who is countering who. you have pulled me up twice on missing the point now when its been the other way round.

 

[tezz79]

I wouldn't expect a Police Office to act like an angel is such a situation and I accept that these days protesters are far more savvy and know exactly which pressure points to push.

However, if you can't distinguish between an aggressive protester and a confused newspaper salesman who had too many or a protester and a BBC cameraman, than frankly you aren't up to job.

If you are susceptible to violent behaviour (that cannot be excused as self defence or the last resort in controlling a crowd) then you are a liability to the credibility of the Police Force and a danger to the general public.

No excuse, he did it, he was out of order and he's been caught out and the Police themselves have assisted towards that conclusion.

There is absolutely no other credible interpretation of the events.

100% agreed...... Great post

 

[tezz79]

no i am simply picking up the baton i am not misunderstanding who is countering who. you have pulled me up twice on missing the point now when its been the other way round.

Aaah ok lol sorry mate.... My fault

 

[tezz79]

Superiority? The officer's done wrong, he should be kicked out of the force and maybe a short stretch inside, but if policemen start getting done for manslaughter for pushing a bloke over then we've got a big problem.

Who'd be a policeman dealing with lary pissed up chavs on a Friday night? I daresay there's hundreds of incidents of police using force on kids who end up staggering and falling all over the place, banging their heads off walls, pavements and tarmac.

If be was stumbling towards him in a threatening manner your point would still probably be weak but the guy was walking away with his hands in his f***ing pockets posing no threat to anyone when he was hit & shoved to the floor.
Do you think the police should have the right to do this simply because they have a rough job that they themselves chose ?

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Superiority? The officer's done wrong, he should be kicked out of the force and maybe a short stretch inside, but if policemen start getting done for manslaughter for pushing a bloke over then we've got a big problem.

Who'd be a policeman dealing with lary pissed up chavs on a Friday night? I daresay there's hundreds of incidents of police using force on kids who end up staggering and falling all over the place, banging their heads off walls, pavements and tarmac.

I don't see it as being a big problem. There is a distinct difference between the pushing in this incidence and the threat of a lairy pissed up chav.

A policeman should not push someone to the floor, if they are offering no apparent threat and walking away from them. Threatening and in your face, push them or restrain them. Someone walking away from you, with their back turned, don't push them. It is not rocket science. I don't see it as opening avenues for future prosecutions, if the law makes it clear.

 

[clapham_gull]

Superiority? The officer's done wrong, he should be kicked out of the force and maybe a short stretch inside, but if policemen start getting done for manslaughter for pushing a bloke over then we've got a big problem.

Who'd be a policeman dealing with lary pissed up chavs on a Friday night? I daresay there's hundreds of incidents of police using force on kids who end up staggering and falling all over the place, banging their heads off walls, pavements and tarmac.

..er let's be clear. Wacked on the back of the legs with a baton, then pushed over when walking away with his hands in his pockets.

I'm fully aware that sometimes Police have to do things that appear "violent" to the general public. I witnessed something I felt quite odd in London a few years ago when a Police chase ended up right outside my flat. The bloke was "resisting arrest" (well being a bit awkward to be honest) and I saw what I thought was a Police Office punch him in the stomach. Spoke to a Police Officer later about it and the way it was explained to me, well I came to understand what probably happened.

In any case, if I had been standing outside my flat and the Police hadn't stopped him I could have worse been run over or at least been trying to reclaim costs for a demolished front wall.

In the Tomlinson case, I failing to see any reasonable excuse why the Police Officer acted in the way he did other that his own excuse for doing so. If any member of the general public pushed someone over from behind after hitting them with a weapon, and person subsequently died I expect them to be arrested. Wouldn't you ?

 

[Pavilionaire]

theres a lot of generalising about the police on this thread eh

What, so you think the police in China / Russia / South Africa / Colombia / Iraq / Uzbekistan / Mexico etc are more honest and less violent?!

 

[tezz79]

What, so you think the police in China / Russia / South Africa / Colombia / Iraq / Uzbekistan / Mexico etc are more honest and less violent?!

So what !!! This thread isn't about Wich nation has the worst police force it's about one officer !!! For crying out loud

 

[The Spanish]

What, so you think the police in China / Russia / South Africa / Colombia / Iraq / Uzbekistan / Mexico etc are more honest and less violent?!

ah at least we are narrowing the field slightly from the previous sweeping global dismissal of all foreign coppers, albeit to a fairer and more reasonable list only featuring nototrously repressive states, a country that until recently practiced apartheid, a global drugs producer or two, a war ravaged country in the throes of a civil war, etc.