Ian Tomlinson,unlawful killing.

[clapham_gull]

next time there is a protest that turns violent and a police office is in a position where he has a legitimate reason to use his truncheon (or whatever), he doesn't for fear of these repurcussions.

Comes with the territory and is one of the things I highly respect about professions like the Police Force, Doctors and Paramedics. You greatly underestimate their professionalism and intelligence is you think they are unable to make a split second call about the appropriate action to take. They all get it right 99.99% percent of the time in this country and are generally very good in acknowledging when one of their members gets it wrong, when all the facts are known.

What muddied the waters this time was initial autopsy by a pathologist who is currently under investigation on a number of issues. An autopsy that took place prior to the evidence of the baton strike and push. That's the only reason we are talking about this now.

Lessons learnt and move on.

 

[tezz79]

For those defending the copper if your ever walking minding your own business & get shoved to the floor, bang your head & get brain damaged & crippled by someone payed to uphold the law I hope when the offending officer comes to visit you that you shake his hand & say "oh that's ok officer you had such a tough day at work that day, I think it was to be expected"

 

[bhaexpress]

Obviously the evidence against this officer is pretty damning but what was his state of mind before the incident ? How wound up was he by other marchers ? All too easy to demand the officer's head but in the course of their duty the Police do get a lot more provocation than most people. I'm not in anyway condoning this officer's behaviour but I would like a bit more knowledge about him before passing judgement. Does he have a discipline issue ? What is he like as a person ? We all know that there is a certain element that joins the Police for the wrong reasons but this case will effect future behaviour of the Police.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

For those defending the copper if your ever walking minding your own business & get shoved to the floor, bang your head & get brain damaged & crippled by someone payed to uphold the law I hope when the offending officer comes to visit you that you shake his hand & say "oh that's ok officer you had such a tough day at work that day, I think it was to be expected"

I'm having a bit of a tough day at work this morning. I think I might pop out over lunch and shove some people about. Then again I might not.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Comes with the territory and is one of the things I highly respect about professions like the Police Force, Doctors and Paramedics. You obviously underestimate their professionalism and intelligence is you think they are unable to make a split second call about the appropriate action to take.

We've seen with the De Menezes case that the police can and do get it wrong. However unjust it may seem, if individual officers are put up on manslaughter or murder charges when the intent to kill was plainly never there then that's bound to make individual officers think twice about any significant use of force and therefore potentially compromise their ability to police effectively.

 

[bhaexpress]

We've seen with the De Menezes case that the police can and do get it wrong. However unjust it may seem, if individual officers are put up on manslaughter or murder charges when the intent to kill was plainly never there then that's bound to make individual officers think twice about any significant use of force and therefore potentially compromise their ability to police effectively.

Exactly.

 

[clapham_gull]

We've seen with the De Menezes case that the police can and do get it wrong. However unjust it may seem, if individual officers are put up on manslaughter or murder charges when the intent to kill was plainly never there then that's bound to make individual officers think twice about any significant use of force and therefore potentially compromise their ability to police effectively.

But it obviously hasn't affected the Police that much because they have continued to use guns in certain situations.

The De Menezes case is significantly different. It was a catalogue of errors where it was difficult to pin point a single individual who acted illegally and in isolation.

The officers at the station had every belief that the person was a threat to both themselves and the general public. however wrong the information that was passed down to them.

As unfortunate as it was, the person who pulled the trigger was simply doing their job.

Let's be clear. The Police officer did not attack a protestor, a football hooligan or someone walking around at kicking out time looking for a fight.

 

[NMH]

Oh That's handy for the police ain't it ... He was already "on the brink of death"

That's how it might get seen in a court. Unless you know of any other cases where the police got penalized well and truly for being instrumental in a public death. A judge will have it put to him that there was a 'difficult job and in extreme circumstances', and no doubt it'll be steered away from how it went (and was filmed on camera!).

Watching that video of John Catt and the attentions his little crowd got from the ob, I wonder why the police need to get so up-close and personal with people when the people ARE acting within the laws and rules? I understand some kind of handling is required when property is damaged and disorder threatens other members of public, but Tomlinson wasn't.

Obviously that cop - nor his type - should not be on the force working under the concept that they protect and serve the general public. They don't do their fellow officers any favours that's for sure.

 

[tezz79]

Obviously the evidence against this officer is pretty damning but what was his state of mind before the incident ? How wound up was he by other marchers ? All too easy to demand the officer's head but in the course of their duty the Police do get a lot more provocation than most people. I'm not in anyway condoning this officer's behaviour but I would like a bit more knowledge about him before passing judgement. Does he have a discipline issue ? What is he like as a person ? We all know that there is a certain element that joins the Police for the wrong reasons but this case will effect future behaviour of the Police.

What difference would that make ? He still killed a bloke after steaming around like a prick .... It's shit like this why people in this country get such light sentences for some f***ing awful crimes

 

[beorhthelm]

... if individual officers are put up on manslaughter or murder charges when the intent to kill was plainly never there...

isn't that the whole point of "manslaughter" as a different term, that there is no intent to kill?

 

[bhaexpress]

What difference would that make ? He still killed a bloke after steaming around like a prick .... It's shit like this why people in this country get such light sentences for some f***ing awful crimes

Isee, you sound as though you have a particularly strong dislike of the Police, do you have a criminal record ? I am merely trying to give a more balanced view which clearly you can't do for whatever reason. In fact I have been assaulted by the Police (and needed hospital treatment) but I don't have an issue with all of them. I would like to see both sides thoroughly.

 

[British Bulldog]

We've seen with the De Menezes case that the police can and do get it wrong. However unjust it may seem, if individual officers are put up on manslaughter or murder charges when the intent to kill was plainly never there then that's bound to make individual officers think twice about any significant use of force and therefore potentially compromise their ability to police effectively.

There's a vast number of people in this country doing jobs where you run the risk of being put on a manslaughter charge if you make a mistake and kill someone so why should the police any different?

 

[NMH]

We've seen with the De Menezes case that the police can and do get it wrong. However unjust it may seem, if individual officers are put up on manslaughter or murder charges when the intent to kill was plainly never there then that's bound to make individual officers think twice about any significant use of force and therefore potentially compromise their ability to police effectively.

Whereas I agree with you - I remain absolutely flabbergasted that in the ONLY case of this kind presented to our famous 'British bobbies' police force, they managed to make such an enormous World-famous stupid-arsed cock-up of it.
Entrusted with order and safety, they judged, condemned, and carried out the death penalty in a country that doesn't have one - in full public view. Talk about doing the terrorist's job for them!

 

[tezz79]

That's how it might get seen in a court. Unless you know of any other cases where the police got penalized well and truly for being instrumental in a public death. A judge will have it put to him that there was a 'difficult job and in extreme circumstances', and no doubt it'll be steered away from how it went (and was filmed on camera!).

Watching that video of John Catt and the attentions his little crowd got from the ob, I wonder why the police need to get so up-close and personal with people when the people ARE acting within the laws and rules? I understand some kind of handling is required when property is damaged and disorder threatens other members of public, but Tomlinson wasn't.

Obviously that cop - nor his type - should not be on the force working under the concept that they protect and serve the general public. They don't do their fellow officers any favours that's for sure.

Most of the guys are just doing their job & I respect them for that & a tough job it is but this bloke just went on a rampage & took advantage of his authority & the situation imo

 

[withdeanwombat]

Doddery old allegedly alcoholic newspaper man trying to get out, hit with a baton for no reason,pushed to the ground whilst his hands were in his pockets (possibly going for his Glock?).Manslaughter.

Next.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

We've seen with the De Menezes case that the police can and do get it wrong. However unjust it may seem, if individual officers are put up on manslaughter or murder charges when the intent to kill was plainly never there then that's bound to make individual officers think twice about any significant use of force and therefore potentially compromise their ability to police effectively.

The police have guidelines to follow to protect themselves as much as the public. Stick to these then they will be fine. They receive a lot of training regarding how to deal with situations under provocation, what is reasonable and what is not etc. Most police officers stay roughly on track and police in an appropriate and just manner. I do not see this changing as a result of this case. If anything, weeding out inappropriate officers will help the police in the long run.

 

[rool]

We've seen with the De Menezes case that the police can and do get it wrong. However unjust it may seem, if individual officers are put up on manslaughter or murder charges when the intent to kill was plainly never there then that's bound to make individual officers think twice about any significant use of force and therefore potentially compromise their ability to police effectively.

Would it not also be a compromise to public safety if the police were to remain untouchable for committing such crimes?

 

[tezz79]

Isee, you sound as though you have a particularly strong dislike of the Police, do you have a criminal record ? I am merely trying to give a more balanced view which clearly you can't do for whatever reason. In fact I have been assaulted by the Police (and needed hospital treatment) but I don't have an issue with all of them. I would like to see both sides thoroughly.

Erm read my last post. I just have a problem with the bully boy ones & yes I have a record from my past but respect most police & the fact they have a tough job, as a teenager I got a few well deserved slaps off the ob & I don't blame them but this guy was doing nothing

 

[Acker79]

Someone in that position of power should able to recognise the difference between a threat & someone walking away from a situation with his hands in his pockets, if not they shouldn't be doing the f***ing job in the 1st place.
Like i said sometimes decisions have to be made but there is no way you can argue this guy was perceived as a threat as the officer himself has even addmitted so why the f*** should he get away with approaching him from behind hitting him then throwing him to the ground ?
If someones in a coppers face or acting aggressively toward people it's different but in this case the officer knew Ian thomlinson wasn't but decided to attack him anyway

So this copper also thought the guy with the giant f***ing video camera on his shoulder was a violent protester trying to break though police lines right ?
Fact is he was running around acting it up in front of his copper mates thinking he could get away with it & ended up killing an innocent bloke trying to get home from work & to you this fine

Did you even read what I said? I've not defended this guy here. I've not excused his actions, or those of the police officer(s?) that took out the camera man.

I've simply asked if a strict punishment for this event could have negative repurcussions. (And also if a stricter punishment is required because of the position and power the guy had)

Comes with the territory and is one of the things I highly respect about professions like the Police Force, Doctors and Paramedics. You greatly underestimate their professionalism and intelligence is you think they are unable to make a split second call about the appropriate action to take. They all get it right 99.99% percent of the time in this country and are generally very good in acknowledging when one of their members gets it wrong, when all the facts are known.

Indeed, it does, but to try some sort of probably poor anology, look at football referees, and the psychological games Alex Ferguson plays. In the immediate aftermath of the game v arsenal he talks about a referee conspiracy against Utd, and immediately puts pressure on the ref for next week's game v Chelsea. It's only human nature that any big decisions made will cause added pressure for Howard Webb (especially given the photoshopped picture of him in a man utd shirt). If he makes a decision against Utd, he will have to deal with Ferguson and utd fans. If he makes a decision in Utd's favour the favourtism thing will reappear. He now, perhaps even subconsciously, will potentially have these thinigs affecting his decision making.

You hope that the police are strong enough to not let a strict decision to effect their decision making, but they are human, and you can't be sure that every single police officer in every crowd control unit will all be strong enough. Police forces aren't exactly highly attractive employment opportunities, drawing in millions of applicants to choose from, they can't exactly not fill roles, unless they decide to overwork their officers, which will make lapses in judgement more frequent and be worse.

 

[Twizzle]

Isee, you sound as though you have a particularly strong dislike of the Police, do you have a criminal record ? I am merely trying to give a more balanced view which clearly you can't do for whatever reason. In fact I have been assaulted by the Police (and needed hospital treatment) but I don't have an issue with all of them. I would like to see both sides thoroughly.

I've been treated unfairly by police also - during my unfair treatment I made comments and referred to their handling of Blair Peach, at which they arrested me. In court the attending officer bare-faced lied and simply accused me of shouting obscenities at the top of my voice. The court actually believed me in my telling of the truth of the occasion, but since I didn't wish to go through more time and effort to fight a case (which wasn't leaving me with any great record) I plead no contention to a minor misdemeanor and was fined the minimum, £10.
I've also been taken in for suspician of a crime that I had nothing to do with and wasn't anywhere near when it took place (case handled ironically by an Inspector Holmes!) and realized then that our trusted custodians are too often clueless thickees just turning up so they can get paid for doing something and submit paperwork for it. Like a bloke digging any old bit of road because he might find a pipe that he's been told is leaking somewhere or other. If they only watched Colombo they'd learn better methods for detecting criminals!

The police can be arrogant, lying scum with no better morals than disco bouncers.
It can be said that it takes one to catch one - and that's what our taxes pay for amazingly.