How much is the Referendum Campaign influencing you?

[Deleted member 22389]

In what way are we 'controlled' by Europe?

Any more so than say Sussex is controlled by Westminster perhaps?

1) Free movement of people, zero control over the numbers

2) Complete failure of EU borders, it is why we have 1000s of people in Calais and other ports trying to get to the UK, and it's why 1000s more pour in to the EU everyday. They are all not genuine Refugees

3) Lack of democracy. Feels like we are starting to live in a dictatorship.

There you go, three reasons why we are controlled. The decisions of the EU effect us all, and they are good reasons to leave the EU straight away. My vote is because the EU has failed, it is not fit for purpose and I'm not even including the disgusting amount of money we send them every week.

As for the issue of Trade Deals, other countries manage it outside the EU so why can't we? Business will continue whatever

1) We will still be able to buy our TV's, Computers, Mobile Phones from countries like China
2) We will still be able to buy our cars and other goods from the EU
3) We will still be able to go on holiday to Europe

Oh and workers rights existed long before the EU. Remain just like to put up barriers.

 

[ROSM]

1) Free movement of people, zero control over the numbers

2) Complete failure of EU borders, it is why we have 1000s of people in Calais and other ports trying to get to the UK, and it's why 1000s more pour in to the EU everyday. They are all not genuine Refugees

3) Lack of democracy. Feels like we are starting to live in a dictatorship.

There you go, three reasons why we are controlled. The decisions of the EU effect us all, and they are good reasons to leave the EU straight away. My vote is because the EU has failed, it is not fit for purpose and I'm not even including the disgusting amount of money we send them every week.

As for the issue of Trade Deals, other countries manage it outside the EU so why can't we? Business will continue whatever

1) We will still be able to buy our TV's, Computers, Mobile Phones from countries like China
2) We will still be able to buy our cars and other goods from the EU
3) We will still be able to go on holiday to Europe

Oh and workers rights existed long before the EU. Remain just like to put up barriers.

That isn't control. We vote on those items and also have a veto on many e.g. which countries join the EU. How is that a lack of democracy?

You do know that the two other European countries outside the EU that need the trade terms both had to agree to free movement?

As for refugees, clearly our current border controls are working given they are all at Calais as you say. Will that be any different if we vote leave?

You're right, of course we can buy from those countries, but its the terms of which we can sell to them that is the bigger issue. Yes we are net importers but we are still the 10th biggest exporter in the world. But trade tariffs and quotas will eat away at that and it will take many years to negotiate past that.

 

[heathgate]

Is the swing to Brexit in the polls an engineering from the establishment to scare remain supporters into turning out at the ballot box ?

This is finally getting interesting.

Ah of course, it must be impossible to consider that it isn't just a genuine trend of voter preferences... it must be a media carve up.

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[Deleted member 22389]

That isn't control. We vote on those items and also have a veto on many e.g. which countries join the EU. How is that a lack of democracy?

You're right, of course we can buy from those countries, but its the terms of which we can sell to them that is the bigger issue. Yes we are net importers but we are still the 10th biggest exporter in the world. But trade tariffs and quotas will eat away at that and it will take many years to negotiate past that.

We don't vote on anything. If you say we have control, why have none of us received voting slips on whether other countries should be allowed to join the EU? These are major decisions, and have a massive effect on other countries inside the EU. Adding another country opens up our borders again to free movement which is where the EU is going wrong.

Our border controls for illegals are only working because of the Channel. If we didn't have that we would have millions of people on our doorstep tomorrow breaking in to this country. It is a weak argument for Remain, when the very reason these people are in France is because of EU weak borders in the first place. Rules on Asylum have been broken over and over again.

They can spout Schengen as another argument, but once again that means naff all when people are getting in the back of lorries and now boats, and then being given the opportunity to claim Asylum in the UK, at the cost of the tax payer. It makes a mockery of Remains whole argument.

 

[ROSM]

We don't vote on anything. If you say we have control, why have none of us received voting slips on whether other countries should be allowed to join the EU? These are major decisions, and have a massive effect on other countries inside the EU. Adding another country opens up our borders again to free movement which is where the EU is going wrong.

Our border controls for illegals are only working because of the Channel. If we didn't have that we would have millions of people on our doorstep tomorrow breaking in to this country. It is a weak argument for Remain, when the very reason these people are in France is because of EU weak borders in the first place. Rules on Asylum have been broken over and over again.

They can spout Schengen as another argument, but once again that means naff all when people are getting in the back of lorries and now boats, and then being given the opportunity to claim Asylum in the UK, at the cost of the tax payer. It makes a mockery of Remains whole argument.

You vote for the MEP

Your government (who you had a vote for) is the one that exercises a veto on new countries joining.
Of course it may be that you don't trust your government. You know, the people you believe should have ultimate power with no checks and balances.
So it's double democracy.

But as I said, to get the trade deals our economy needs we will likely have to agree to the same free movement that you clearly are so concerned about.

 

[Albumen]

Farage making a daily dick of himself makes me want to remain more than ever.

 

[cunning fergus]

That isn't control. We vote on those items and also have a veto on many e.g. which countries join the EU. How is that a lack of democracy?

You do know that the two other European countries outside the EU that need the trade terms both had to agree to free movement?

As for refugees, clearly our current border controls are working given they are all at Calais as you say. Will that be any different if we vote leave?

You're right, of course we can buy from those countries, but its the terms of which we can sell to them that is the bigger issue. Yes we are net importers but we are still the 10th biggest exporter in the world. But trade tariffs and quotas will eat away at that and it will take many years to negotiate past that.

No one, absolutely no one has voted for what the EU is now.

The treaties that have morphed the EEC into the EU with its unelected Presidents, powerful executive and attributes of statehood have never been voted for by the British electorate.

Moreover, key to the reason why there is such unease in the UK with how the EU works is the longstanding dynamic of mainstream British politicians of all flavours being dishonest about the motives and reach of the EU.

This is putting it mildly, as Ted Heath and other politicians lied to the electorate to get us in, and this initial deception set the tone for his successors.

The fact that 40 years on it is the generations that were able to vote for the EEC who are most opposed to the EU now tells its own story. They know the scale of the deception.

These are the facts of why we are where we are, when we voted to join the EEC free movement of people, 28 member states, rapacious capitalism, institutional privatisation, a European currency and all that goes with it were never ever on the agenda.

I suspect you are young and naive........if you are then not you should know better than to defend EU "democracy".

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Ah of course, it must be impossible to consider that it isn't just a genuine trend of voter preferences... it must be a media carve up.

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You miss the context of the post

It was part of the strand that 'The Establishment' who want to stay in the EU were engineering things behind the scenes.

I don't think they are, but it is fun to speculate on conspiracy.

It's all been a dull debate of ' statement->you liar->no, you liar->no, you liar->... ' so far, this is something to ignite the interest.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Farage making a daily dick of himself makes me want to remain more than ever.

He makes we want to punch him in his grinning face, but at the same time I wouldn't base my vote on how big a tool he is.

 

[ROSM]

No one, absolutely no one has voted for what the EU is now.

The treaties that have morphed the EEC into the EU with its unelected Presidents, powerful executive and attributes of statehood have never been voted for by the British electorate.

Moreover, key to the reason why there is such unease in the UK with how the EU works is the longstanding dynamic of mainstream British politicians of all flavours being dishonest about the motives and reach of the EU.

This is putting it mildly, as Ted Heath and other politicians lied to the electorate to get us in, and this initial deception set the tone for his successors.

The fact that 40 years on it is the generations that were able to vote for the EEC who are most opposed to the EU now tells its own story. They know the scale of the deception.

These are the facts of why we are where we are, when we voted to join the EEC free movement of people, 28 member states, rapacious capitalism, institutional privatisation, a European currency and all that goes with it were never ever on the agenda.

I suspect you are young and naive........if you are then not you should know better than to defend EU "democracy".

But my point is that we are where we are. If we leave it will be painful and impact us negatively financially. Anybody who says otherwise and who believes we will just quickly negotiate trade deals is living in a naive world of their own

 

[drew]

No one, absolutely no one has voted for what the EU is now.

The treaties that have morphed the EEC into the EU with its unelected Presidents, powerful executive and attributes of statehood have never been voted for by the British electorate.

Moreover, key to the reason why there is such unease in the UK with how the EU works is the longstanding dynamic of mainstream British politicians of all flavours being dishonest about the motives and reach of the EU.

This is putting it mildly, as Ted Heath and other politicians lied to the electorate to get us in, and this initial deception set the tone for his successors.

The fact that 40 years on it is the generations that were able to vote for the EEC who are most opposed to the EU now tells its own story. They know the scale of the deception.

These are the facts of why we are where we are, when we voted to join the EEC free movement of people, 28 member states, rapacious capitalism, institutional privatisation, a European currency and all that goes with it were never ever on the agenda.

I suspect you are young and naive........if you are then not you should know better than to defend EU "democracy".

The nation has voted for successive governments, all of which have been happy to remain as part of the EU. The one main anti EU party only won one seat at the last election and that was probably more to do with people seeing him as a good local MP rather than the party he had transferred his allegiance to. We don't have a history in this country of referenda for various issues which means you can't cherry pick policies from the party you voted for.

 

[cunning fergus]

The nation has voted for successive governments, all of which have been happy to remain as part of the EU. The one main anti EU party only won one seat at the last election and that was probably more to do with people seeing him as a good local MP rather than the party he had transferred his allegiance to. We don't have a history in this country of referenda for various issues which means you can't cherry pick policies from the party you voted for.

Its not so straightforward is it, in the last EU election the party that received most votes was one that wants to exit the EU.

That is not my point though, and regardless about whether or not you support the EU over the last 40 years various British politicians have been involved in an exercise of deception with the electorate about the true motives and intentions of the EU.

To some extent it is they that have poisoned the well relating to many peoples view of the EU because they have been proved untrustworthy in setting out our relationship with the EU.

Ted Heath lied to get us in in the first place, that is a fact, and since then it's not really changed.

The reason he lied was because he knew the electorate would not stand for a fully integrated EU which has been the plan all along and continues to be the plan in Brussels.

Many UK politicians are continuing the deception now, and all they are doing is storing up trouble down the road.

There will be an EU army and all the other organs of state, as we know.

Those voting to remain who think this won't happen because of Cameron's "special status" will be the next generation of disillusioned sceptics.

Even those voting remain who want a fully integrated EU are not prepared to say it plainly, they will behind arguments about trade and economics.

The lying goes on and on.......and democracy and trust is damaged as a consequence.

 

[cunning fergus]

But my point is that we are where we are. If we leave it will be painful and impact us negatively financially. Anybody who says otherwise and who believes we will just quickly negotiate trade deals is living in a naive world of their own

If you want to be the servant to the interests of global capitalism then you can make this argument.

This country and the EU has never been so immersed in the interests of corporatism and yet it has produced grinding austerity and eye watering unemployment rates in parts of the EU.

Working conditions have been degraded across the EU and France and Belgium are currently dealing with that new reality with their workers and unions.

More is to come, if the euro is to be saved.

So yes, if the Tory vision that free market capitalism is will lead us to the sunlit uplands of a privatised NHS, then step this way to vote remain.

 

[GT49er]

But my point is that we are where we are. If we leave it will be painful and impact us negatively financially. Anybody who says otherwise and who believes we will just quickly negotiate trade deals is living in a naive world of their own

Trade deals, trade deals, trade deals! What is it with this obsession about trade deals? Trade will carry on with or without trade deals. The world won't end without trade deals.
They are not the most important thing in the world!

 

[BLOCK F]

Remain for me.
Was at the beginning of the campaign and still am.

 

[drew]

Trade deals, trade deals, trade deals! What is it with this obsession about trade deals? Trade will carry on with or without trade deals. The world won't end without trade deals.
They are not the most important thing in the world!

Trade will carry on but the deals remove tariffs and reduce the price of products to the consumer. We come out of the EU then do the Brexit crew know whether other countries around the world will immediately impose tariffs on our goods or will they be happy to let us trade as if we were in the EU until our severance is negotiated?

When we do come to negotiate with the likes of US, China, the EU, we do so from a position of being the smaller party in the deal. Look at the deal Switzerland secured with China. Well, actually would probably be more appropriate to describe as a deal imposed on Switzerland as they pretty much had no choice other than to accept whatever terms China chose to impose!

 

[pasty]

In a direct answer to the question, the LEAVE campaign has influenced me massively. I am even more convinced to vote REMAIN.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

The nation has voted for successive governments, all of which have been happy to remain as part of the EU. The one main anti EU party only won one seat at the last election and that was probably more to do with people seeing him as a good local MP rather than the party he had transferred his allegiance to. We don't have a history in this country of referenda for various issues which means you can't cherry pick policies from the party you voted for.

Join the Euro then, since you said we can't cherry pick.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Trade will carry on but the deals remove tariffs and reduce the price of products to the consumer. We come out of the EU then do the Brexit crew know whether other countries around the world will immediately impose tariffs on our goods or will they be happy to let us trade as if we were in the EU until our severance is negotiated?

When we do come to negotiate with the likes of US, China, the EU, we do so from a position of being the smaller party in the deal. Look at the deal Switzerland secured with China. Well, actually would probably be more appropriate to describe as a deal imposed on Switzerland as they pretty much had no choice other than to accept whatever terms China chose to impose!

I mentioned this example a lifetime ago showing the benefits of independent nations making their own trade deals ... so yes lets have a look at that deal. First the economic downside of being in the EU.

Despite the beginning of the European recession in 2008 and ongoing questions about the financial health of the EU, which have also been warning lights for Beijing, the Xi Jinping government has called upon the EU to consider opening free trade agreement talks. President Xi won a promise of sorts, during his visit to Brussels in March of last year, that the EU would return to the question of an agreement in the near future, but since that time there has been little progress, as the EU has focused on a host of internal problems, with the slow-motion calamity of the Greek debt crisis at the top of the list. . . as well as widely different levels of enthusiasm among EU member economies for a free trade agreement with China

Switzerland, by contrast, in the tradition of its Sonderfall (exceptional case) politics and foreign policy, has sought to maximise the benefits of its agreement with China over the past two years. The agreement, in addition to removing bilateral tariffs and trade barriers on goods and services, also provides for intellectual property protection, which was a key demand from Switzerland since the start of the negotiations and a main reason why recent free trade talks between Switzerland and India have experienced delays. The deal was also accompanied by parallel agreements on employment and labour. Other provisions of the agreement include investment promotion, technical cooperation and environmental protection, and overall the deal has provided a platform for future bilateral economic cooperation, notably in the area of banking.

The trade volume between China and Switzerland has been growing rapidly over the past decade, with Swiss exports to China rising from CHF 2.5 billion to CHF 8.8 billion, (US$2.7 billion to US$9.4 billion), between 2003-13, and Chinese imports in Switzerland jumping from CHF 2.5 billion to CHF 11.4 billion (US$2.7 billion to US$12.2 billion) during the same time period.

According to a June 2014 report by Credit Suisse, China is expected to overtake Germany as Switzerland’s largest trading partner by 2035, based on current figures.

At the end of last year, President Xi announced that China would accelerate its free trade strategy and seek out new free trade agreement partners in the coming years.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2...switzerlands-free-trade-agreement-with-china/

If little old Switzerland can benefit this much think what the worlds Fifth biggest economy could achieve. If only we weren't limited to over reliance on poorly performing markets in Europe and could strike deals with fast growing markets all over the world who are keen to make deals.

 

[heathgate]

Corbyn says workers rights will be protected by the EU and the real threat is the Conservative government. That's the same Conservative government that is vigorously supporting his Remain stance. Something doesn't stack up.

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