Head teacher abused in Croydon school gates smoking row

[Working class pride]

Christ. I produced something more appetising when I vomited up a bottle of rum and a net of prawns on my 21st in Cuba.

I don't know where to begin, so I'll try...

Are all teachers impolite to their 'customers'? I've generally found that most parents are supportive of the teacher. You get the odd ball, but supportive none-the-less.

Polite?! Are you talking from personal experience or just being a prick?

Teaching is not an easy job or an easy option...

Screw that. You're clearly on a wind up. I'm not going to waste any more time on you.

Not on a wind up. The teaching profession is self centred, self serving, inherently made up of mildly achieving middle class class people who seem to have an aversion to competing with each other so to drive up standards. The unions hate free schools but have seen that they drive up standards, they are running scared and now want more regulation in the hope it will put people off. The reason they hate them is that the schools will want to meet the demands of the customer to demand more for less and drive up standards. Those in the teaching profession who understand this will make significant money, those who dont, will hark back to the wonderful days of the 1970s comprehensive when they could turn up to work with strange hair and the NUT latest strike ballot under their arm whilst discussing what a lovely time they had had in the south of France over summer.

 

[BadFish]

Christ. I produced something more appetising when I vomited up a bottle of rum and a net of prawns on my 21st in Cuba.

I don't know where to begin, so I'll try...

Are all teachers impolite to their 'customers'? I've generally found that most parents are supportive of the teacher. You get the odd ball, but supportive none-the-less.

Polite?! Are you talking from personal experience or just being a prick?

Teaching is not an easy job or an easy option...

Screw that. You're clearly on a wind up. I'm not going to waste any more time on you.

Trouble with the idea that students or parents are customers is that often teachers have to teach stuff that the customers don't want to learn. If they are customers then they will be able to refuse these lessons and miss out on a big important part of their education. I am going through this at the moment, one student who has moved schools several times takes a few days off every time she is challenged or hears something she doesn't want to hear. her mum takes every opportunity to moan about the school and challenge our ideas. The net result of this is that she has little or no social skills, resilience and is falling behind academically.

 

[GreersElbow]

is that a fact as well?

these parents appear to have only just been told. when did it become a convention? at what schools, where?

Smoking is a convention, that's my point. Not outside of schools, I was using that as an example for on the forum, as on the forum it would not be an acceptable norm. But your ability to smoke is a convention, no one has given you a right to smoke, it has become a convention through decades of it being a habit and public acceptance, in recent years you could argue that public opinion on smoking has turned towards a more negative approach, but that's a different matter.

But, in terms of the previous comments regarding wellquickwoody, he seemed adamant there was a law that allowed people to smoke. There isn't, it's a convention that has been built up over a century, smoking isn't a new phenomenon. It has been around for decades, and as a result it has become acceptable to smoke. Legislation regarding smoking has only been introduced to prohibit certain areas, they don't state it's your statutory right to smoke outside as that was already a widely accepted habit.

Hopefully that makes sense....

 

[BadFish]

Not on a wind up. The teaching profession is self centred, self serving, inherently made up of mildly achieving middle class class people who seem to have an aversion to competing with each other so to drive up standards. The unions hate free schools but have seen that they drive up standards, they are running scared and now want more regulation in the hope it will put people off. The reason they hate them is that the schools will want to meet the demands of the customer to demand more for less and drive up standards. Those in the teaching profession who understand this will make significant money, those who dont, will hark back to the wonderful days of the 1970s comprehensive when they could turn up to work with strange hair and the NUT latest strike ballot under their arm whilst discussing what a lovely time they had had in the south of France over summer.

yes we do....because it works much better to work with each other to drive up standards rather than against each other.

didn't read the rest of your post.

 

[Working class pride]

Trouble with the idea that students or parents are customers is that often teachers have to teach stuff that the customers don't want to learn. If they are customers then they will be able to refuse these lessons and miss out on a big important part of their education. I am going through this at the moment, one student who has moved schools several times takes a few days off every time she is challenged or hears something she doesn't want to hear. her mum takes every opportunity to moan about the school and challenge our ideas. The net result of this is that she has little or no social skills, resilience and is falling behind academically.

Just look at private and international schools. Working class kids deserve that, free schools are moving to that. Teachers have a journey to make to understand that they have to improve, and improve they will by a change of mentality which schools competing with schools will ring,. The good schools will expand, the poor schools will not attract customers and those teachers will be out of a job.

 

[Working class pride]

yes we do....because it works much better to work with each other to drive up standards rather than against each other.

didn't read the rest of your post.

You really are so wrong and hence why the most free, liberal and successful places to live in the world are market economies. Its astounding that this seems to escape you lot. Just look at free schools, private schools and international schools. You really are behind the curve.

 

[BadFish]

Just look at private and international schools. Working class kids deserve that, free schools are moving to that. Teachers have a journey to make to understand that they have to improve, and improve they will by a change of mentality which schools competing with schools will ring,. The good schools will expand, the poor schools will not attract customers and those teachers will be out of a job.

Aactually the poor schools will be full of the worst teachers teaching the most challenging and difficult kids. (Many from the working class you are allegedly so proud of). All of This with the least resources. Tell me how does this benefit those kids?

The gap gets wider.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Not on a wind up. The teaching profession is self centred, self serving, inherently made up of mildly achieving middle class class people who seem to have an aversion to competing with each other so to drive up standards. The unions hate free schools but have seen that they drive up standards, they are running scared and now want more regulation in the hope it will put people off. The reason they hate them is that the schools will want to meet the demands of the customer to demand more for less and drive up standards. Those in the teaching profession who understand this will make significant money, those who dont, will hark back to the wonderful days of the 1970s comprehensive when they could turn up to work with strange hair and the NUT latest strike ballot under their arm whilst discussing what a lovely time they had had in the south of France over summer.

Is there anyone you like, Working Class Pride? What's your experience in the world of deduction, other than '70 to '75 or what a whatever.

I've spent a fair amount of time in five different schools this last year and I'd be willing to wager that the vast majority were not 'mildly achieving middle class'

You could not be more wrong in your assumptions in my actual experience.

I'm not suggesting that education is perfect, but you clearly know very little on the subject if you think teaching is a walk in the park.

From a personal point of view, try teaching assistant in a special needs school and then tell me/us we don't earn our corn.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

but she didn't she made a polite request, nothing rammed down anyones throat. If they disagree then that is their right they can carry on smoking. The abuse is unwarranted and necessary.

No, they don't have the legal right to decline and therefore carry on smoking. It is not guidance but a statutory requirement that they stop. To answer another question posed on this thread, in practice this is taken to mean within sight of the playing area.

 

[BadFish]

Just look at private and international schools. Working class kids deserve that, free schools are moving to that. Teachers have a journey to make to understand that they have to improve, and improve they will by a change of mentality which schools competing with schools will ring,. The good schools will expand, the poor schools will not attract customers and those teachers will be out of a job.

Where will The good schools expand to? It was my impression that the school system in the UK is already over crowded and space is at a premium.

Who will fill the teaching positions when the school expands? Surely these will be the same teachers already not deemed good enough by the school that closed down?

What will happen to the school that closes down? Where will all the under performing students go? The successful schools won't want them as they will bring their averages down and they won't have the space. They have to be taught somewhere.

With a market economy quality schools will be able to pick and choose their ' customers' to keep their results up. Which is exactly what happens in the private sector you seem so keen on. A market economy in education benefits those at the top at the expense of those at the bottom. Your username is a joke you really should change it.

 

[Working class pride]

Aactually the poor schools will be full of the worst teachers teaching the most challenging and difficult kids. (Many from the working class you are allegedly so proud of). All of This with the least resources. Tell me how does this benefit those kids?

The gap gets wider.

Rubbish. The "worst teachers" will be out of a job. The good schools will expand and poor ones fail. Working class kids will then have a better chance than they have had since the days of daft teacher hair cuts, NUT strikes, non competitive sport and all the rest of your professions self serving drivel delivered by a spokesperson who will as a matter of course be rude and patronising by pretending that because they are a teacher then they know best. Which as anyone who watches the NUT conference will know, they clearly do not. Just compete with each other, you run a school how you want, and the customers will decide if you know best or not, as will the results.

 

[BadFish]

Rubbish. The "worst teachers" will be out of a job. The good schools will expand and poor ones fail. Working class kids will then have a better chance than they have had since the days of daft teacher hair cuts, NUT strikes, non competitive sport and all the rest of your professions self serving drivel delivered by a spokesperson who will as a matter of course be rude and patronising by pretending that because they are a teacher then they know best. Which as anyone who watches the NUT conference will know, they clearly do not. Just compete with each other, you run a school how you want, and the customers will decide if you know best or not, as will the results.

To be honest I think your dislike of teachers and unions is clouding your judgement on this issue. You seem to bring a prejudice to the discuss which is the base for your arguments, not sure what this is based on but in my 10 years in the job across a numbers of different schools, your view of teachers is not my experience.

'Customers' deciding if we are doing a good job is all when and good when those customers have the insight, understanding or inclination to understand what good teaching and learning looks like. Those customers will get a cracking education for their kids the others? Well they will be the ones that suffer.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

Looks like working class pride has successfully fished lots of posters here. While NSC threads are all the better for going at different tangents, he's hijacked a topical discussion about a head teacher getting abuse from parents regarding smoking. It's now merely an ideological one about which school systems are best so he can mount his political soapbox.

 

[Working class pride]

Looks like working class pride has successfully fished lots of posters here. While NSC threads are all the better for going at different tangents, he's hijacked a topical discussion about a head teacher getting abuse from parents regarding smoking. It's now merely an ideological one about which school systems are best so he can mount his political soapbox.

It started because I pointed out that in a professional environment you do not walk out of your office and tell off a customer for smoking and that teachers have to learn to be respectful, polite and look to win customers, rather than have the mentality that what they say goes. We all will like, respect, dislike or no respect some of our customers, but we dont go around telling them that. The fact that this simple, basic knowledge escapes some teachers just shows how much some teachers have to learn.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

It started because I pointed out that in a professional environment you do not walk out of your office and tell off a customer for smoking and that teachers have to learn to be respectful, polite and look to win customers, rather than have the mentality that what they say goes. We all will like, respect, dislike or no respect some of our customers, but we dont go around telling them that. The fact that this simple, basic knowledge escapes some teachers just shows how much some teachers have to learn.

Thanks.

Besides trying to please, I'd contend that a professional has to abide by the rules, and see that others abide by them. It's the equivalent of door staff at a night club telling punters that they can't bring a glass into the smoking area or need to light up actually in the designated smoking area and not on the way there. Nothing wrong with that. Done in a polite way, maintaining the rules isn't disrespectful.

As the article the OP posted says, problems began when she wrote a blog piece saying:

"Whilst I don't have any jurisdiction over the behaviour of parents on the street, I do have responsibility for the pupils' behaviour on their way to and from school. In the spirit of this I would respectfully ask that adults refrain from smoking immediately outside the school as some may see this as setting a bad example."

Seems a very courteously phrased message to me. If anything, in this story, the conduct of the teacher is exemplary and that of the handful of parents less so. So I don't see see why it's been turned into a discussion about supposedly rude teachers.

 

[The Spanish]

Thanks.

Besides trying to please, I'd contend that a professional has to abide by the rules, and see that others abide by them. It's the equivalent of door staff at a night club telling punters that they can't bring a glass into the smoking area or need to light up actually in the designated smoking area and not on the way there. Nothing wrong with that. Done in a polite way, maintaining the rules isn't disrespectful.

As the article the OP posted says, problems began when she wrote a blog piece saying:

"Whilst I don't have any jurisdiction over the behaviour of parents on the street, I do have responsibility for the pupils' behaviour on their way to and from school. In the spirit of this I would respectfully ask that adults refrain from smoking immediately outside the school as some may see this as setting a bad example."

Seems a very courteously phrased message to me.

courteously phrased yes but that doesnt make it right or less manipulative. in fact it makes it more snidey in my eyes. she is putting pressure on people to do her will totally outside her jurisdiction simply because she holds a certain view.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

courteously phrased yes but that doesnt make it right or less manipulative. in fact it makes it more snidey in my eyes. she is putting pressure on people to do her will totally outside her jurisdiction simply because she holds a certain view.

It isn't outside her jurisdiction, though. She is working within the welfare requirements that her setting has to abide by under the Statutory Framework of the EYFS 2012.

 

[wellquickwoody]

No one seems to be thinking of the children, can we please think of the children?

Oh please! LOL

 

[wellquickwoody]

No, they don't have the legal right to decline and therefore carry on smoking. It is not guidance but a statutory requirement that they stop. To answer another question posed on this thread, in practice this is taken to mean within sight of the playing area.

Balderdash! 'Within sight of the playing area' is an interpretation adopted by local authorities. Like many H&S 'rules' the myth is perpetuated by common practice, and guidance which is blindly followed without question.

 

[The Spanish]

It isn't outside her jurisdiction, though. She is working within the welfare requirements that her setting has to abide by under the Statutory Framework of the EYFS 2012.

cool