FOUR bombers.

[Hampden Park]

Ah, that's alright then.

dont LI youre popping all of my ribs one at a time

i never said it was alright did i? i said that some people need to carry out revenge or vent their anger.

those bombers went out to intentionally kill people didnt they.
is that ok?

those that firebombed the mosques (late at night/early morning) just caused some superficial damage and maybe hurt the pride (or whatever they have) of the muslims. they did not go out to kill anyone. there is a difference, i feel, between the two

 

[London Irish]

I thought when the cleric was openly preching in the street, Ken was quoted in the Metro that he should be allowed to preach where he wanted and it amounted to police harrassment.

Some bloke on the bus I was on ( No 141)was ranting about it at anyone who would listen...most of us on the bus were trying to do the crossword!!!

I've had a quick trawl through the most viciously rightwing pro-Isreal websites and can't see any Livingstone-Hamza links, and it would be a permanent feature of their home page if it were true. think we'll file that one under urban myths....

Interestingly, Hamza lost his hand and his eye fighting the Russians in Afghanistan, back in the days when the Sun and the Mail were calling him and his mates brave freedom fighters.

 

[Highfields Seagull]

Not sure how you can firebomb anywhere without thinking that you might kill someone - anyone could be inside.

Those carrying out revenge attacks should be punished with the appropriate penalty for the crime just as murderers who kill dozens of people with bombs should be.

 

[Publius Ovidius]

Interestingly, Hamza lost his hand and his eye fighting the Russians in Afghanistan, back in the days when the Sun and the Mail were calling him and his mates brave freedom fighters.

which was the point I made earlier! Keep up you eejit



Our Americal buddies loved the Mujahaddin whilst they were killing Russians, when they stopped and teh Taliban took over in Afghanistan, their attitude changed somewhat

 

[London Irish]

dont LI youre popping all of my ribs one at a time

i never said it was alright did i? i said that some people need to carry out revenge or vent their anger.

those bombers went out to intentionally kill people didnt they.
is that ok?

those that firebombed the mosques (late at night/early morning) just caused some superficial damage and maybe hurt the pride (or whatever they have) of the muslims. they did not go out to kill anyone. there is a difference, i feel, between the two

From the Indy:

The Shajal mosque, in Birkenhead, Wirral, was attacked by two white men on Saturday who threw petrol through the letterbox and ignited it. The assistant imam, Boshir Ullah, was trapped in the upstairs bedroom, as fire raged on the landing outsude. Fire crews pulled him to safety from an upstairs window and extinguished the blaze.

In Nottingham, a 48-year-old man from Pakistan died on Sunday in what police are treating as a racially aggravated attack. Kamal Raza Butt had been living in Nottingham for six weeks. Six people, among them juveniles, have been arrested on suspicion of murder.

 

[Hampden Park]

Not sure how you can firebomb anywhere without thinking that you might kill someone - anyone could be inside.

Those carrying out revenge attacks should be punished with the appropriate penalty for the crime just as murderers who kill dozens of people with bombs should be.

ffs if you firebomb a mosque in the early hours of the morning the chances of it being full of muslims praying is quite remote IMHO.
if those that firebombed the mosques wanted to do some harm to life/lives then they would have done so when the mosque/s were full of allah voters

you are right the firebombers should be punished (i never said that they should/nt have been).

you cant convict a suicide bomber as he has DIY'ed.....

 

[Highfields Seagull]

The chances of them being full may have been slim, but there might have been someone inside who could have been killed.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

What a load of mamby-pamby crap. At least one of the bastard bombers had a degree, no doubt paid for by the British taxpayers. If they are not prepared to swear an oath of loyalty to the Crown, and accept OUR values, they should not be allowed in. People like you make me sick!

How does that oath of loyalty work for pepole who are born here?

 

[Hampden Park]

From the Indy:

The Shajal mosque, in Birkenhead, Wirral, was attacked by two white men on Saturday who threw petrol through the letterbox and ignited it. The assistant imam, Boshir Ullah, was trapped in the upstairs bedroom, as fire raged on the landing outsude. Fire crews pulled him to safety from an upstairs window and extinguished the blaze.






ok LI, i am glad Boshir Ullah is alive and well. bombers 70+ revenge firebombers 0







In Nottingham, a 48-year-old man from Pakistan died on Sunday in what police are treating as a racially aggravated attack. Kamal Raza Butt had been living in Nottingham for six weeks. Six people, among them juveniles, have been arrested on suspicion of murder.

not too sure if this man, Kamal Raza Butt, was actually killed by a mosque-bound fire bomb. it is very sad that he was killed. bombers 70+ revenge firebombers still 0

i do not condone any of these actions taken by the revenge firebombers they are out of order and should be punished. i just cannot understand people that have sympathy/apathy/empathy for crazed muslims

 

[Hampden Park]

The chances of them being full may have been slim, but there might have been someone inside who could have been killed.

slim, might and could. 3 good words = no deaths

 

[London Irish]

i just cannot understand people that have sympathy/apathy/empathy for crazed muslims

That's obvious - but you're going to have to try harder, aren't you, rather than just copping out from thinking about a difficult problem. Until we learn to somehow pull these people back from fundamentalism, it doesn't matter how many we arrest or kill, more are going to keep coming at us. This is as much a political/cultural problem as a security/law enforcement one.

 

[Hampden Park]

That's obvious - but you're going to have to try harder, aren't you, rather than just copping out from thinking about a difficult problem. Until we learn to somehow pull these people back from fundamentalism, it doesn't matter how many we arrest or kill, more are going to keep coming at us. This is as much a political/cultural problem as a security/law enforcement one.

why do i have to try harder? and why am i copping out from thinking about a difficult problem?

i have lived in England for 44 years. i have not invited any muslim/islam/allah voter/mohommed into it. i have relations who are black (brother in law) so i do not consider myself a racist. i fought in the Falklands war against the Argentinians. quite straight forward really (IMHO), they had their uniforms and ships and planes and we had ours. we had several exchanges and we won. end of.

with the muslims you dont know which is your friend and which is your enemy.

how do you intend to pull these people back from fundamentalism? i dont have the answer, do you? if they werent allowed into our country in the first place then perhaps none of this would be happening as they wouldnt be able to blend in would they?

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

Well, actually what would have happened is that you would have had all the Nationalist population of Northern Ireland that votes Sinn Fein (that's most of them now) joining the IRA, increasing the size of that organisation a thousand-fold.

The key is (and it's also the beginnings of an answer to Dave's question) is that you need effective strategies to detach the bombers from the communities they hide in. Randomised, state-sponsored slaughter of Irishmen would have cemented the bombers to their community and nurtured and re-created them, and it's the same lesson now in London.

Racial profiling, ill-thought out powers given to the police to harasss people without judicial overview, further repression of already frightened immigrant communities WILL NOT WORK in fighting terrorism. IT WILL CREATE IT!

I can't give Dave pat easy answers about what will work - because there aren't any.

But what you need is an approach that allows immigrant communities their fullest self-expression as new British citizens. British Muslims need to be able to campaign fully against destructive foreign policy in the Islamic world and stupid wars of conquest without being demonised as traitors (as for example the Sun has been doing with the Muslim academic on its front page over the last couple of days).

That process will empower rational and pro-Enlightenment leaders within Britain's Muslim community to win the battle for the hearts and minds of their angry youth against the awful reactionary fundamentalism of the Abu Hamza's of this world.

That it the key battle - giving the pissed-off Muslim youth a stake in the values of this country. Once we divert them away from the bombers and their sympthathisers, we will have won the "war against terrorism" in this country.

But of course you could just attack or fire-bomb a few mosques - what's the latest count in the last few days, Telford, Tower Hamlets, Norwich, Merton, Leeds, Bristol, Bradford, Liverpool - or stop the right for them to bring granny over from Pakistan.

See how that approach wins over the Muslim youth

That is a very good post, LI.

 

[Eddie the Seagull]

Out of interest, if the bombers had been caught alive would they have been tried for treason? & therefore hanged?

 

[Meade's Ball]

why do i have to try harder? and why am i copping out from thinking about a difficult problem?

i have lived in England for 44 years. i have not invited any muslim/islam/allah voter/mohommed into it. i have relations who are black (brother in law) so i do not consider myself a racist. i fought in the Falklands war against the Argentinians. quite straight forward really (IMHO), they had their uniforms and ships and planes and we had ours. we had several exchanges and we won. end of.

with the muslims you dont know which is your friend and which is your enemy.

how do you intend to pull these people back from fundamentalism? i dont have the answer, do you? if they werent allowed into our country in the first place then perhaps none of this would be happening as they wouldnt be able to blend in would they?

How do you know which white people are your friends and enemies?

 

[Lady Whistledown]

i have lived in England for 44 years. i have not invited any muslim/islam/allah voter/mohommed into it. i have relations who are black (brother in law) so i do not consider myself a racist.

if they werent allowed into our country in the first place then perhaps none of this would be happening as they wouldnt be able to blend in would they?

Where to start??

Since when is Britain an exclusively Christian country? Why do you have any more right to live here than someone else who was born here? Why do you think it should be you who has the privilege of "inviting" someone into this country rather than the other way round?

You mentioned being in the UK for 44 years, well are we now judging people on how long they have lived here? In which case you beat me hands down my friend, as owing to my age, I've only been able to live in the UK for 28 years, so I take it that makes you more merit-worthy to judge other citizens than me? If I found a Muslim who was born here 50 years ago, would that give them the right to say to you "I didn't invite you here"?

Britain, thank God, is a free country, where, by and large, reasonable people are able to practice whatever religion they feel is right. What's wrong with that? To suggest that Muslims shouldn't be allowed into the country because 4 out of however many hundreds of thousands of followers set off those bombs is hysterical and ludicrous.

You know when you go to an away game as part of a large contingent of Albion fans, and the police and away club herd you like cattle, refuse to let you get on the right train, don't let you stray from the one designated path to the ground, ban you from all the local pubs, kebab shops etc? And this is all because one or two Albion fans have previously been arrested for hooligan behaviour? What do we do? We all feel upset and complain bitterly that we're being treated like shit because of the actions of a tiny, tiny minority.

I'd hazard a guess that's exactly how many British Muslims are feeling at the moment, so perhaps we should try and have a bit of compassion rather than tarring them ALL with the same brush.

A 17 year old white male in Brighton was jailed for rape today, but I don't hear anyone suggesting that all 17 year old white males should be locked up....

 

[Publius Ovidius]

A 17 year old white male in Brighton was jailed for rape today, but I don't hear anyone suggesting that all 17 year old white males should be locked up.... [/B]

Lock em all up copper, at least we would be able to go out fro a drink without fearing a punch up after chucking out time

I can't even remember being 17

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

A 17 year old white male in Brighton was jailed for rape today, but I don't hear anyone suggesting that all 17 year old white males should be locked up....

Although, It wouldn't neccesarily be a bad thing...

 

[Lady Whistledown]

Lock em all up copper, at least we would be able to go out fro a drink without fearing a punch up after chucking out time

I can't even remember being 17

You can go out for a drink without a punch up Dave, you just need to know which pubs to go for

If you will keep hanging around the Event and the Standard on a Friday night, what do you expect?

 

[Gerbil]

if they werent allowed into our country in the first place then perhaps none of this would be happening as they wouldnt be able to blend in would they?

I bordered on saying this the other day but was too scared of the slagging off I would have got

Saying that I agree with you 100%.