FOUR bombers.

[3gulls]

Yes it did, later uprisings were results of later uprising. What do you percive Cromwells objectives in Ireland were?

William of Orange did quite a good job on the bastards too.

 

[Willow]

The use of the word "perceived" is fair as far as I can see. 10,000,000 people live or work in London, and about 500 were affected appallingly by the bombs. Maybe that figure rises to 1,000 at most if you consider all London terror incidents in the past 15 years.

So in 15 years, you have a 0.01% (1 in 10,000) chance of being in any way affected by bombings. It seems to be there's a higher chance of you being killed by a wasp sting.

I can't swallow this. I was 20 yards away from the Edgware Road bomb when it went off. 2 secs more and I would have been right on top of it. How is this a perceived threat exactly? I nearly bloody died.

 

[looney]

If you create anti-terror legislation that is little more than racial profiling that harrasses many innocent British Asians, you will create more sympathy for extremist fundamentalism in Britain, and will in effect be doing Osama bin Laden's work for him. That's the dumb George Bush way to fight terrorism - kill a hundred terrorists, create a thousand more.

This is just defeatist claptrap, terrorists are defeatable all it requires is the political will. I see you are not offering an alternative?

Maybe surrender or let them "guide" our foreign policy is more up your street. BTW The latter is why 3k went to train in afghanistan.

 

[London Irish]

Dead is dead! If the security forces had been allowed to take-out the IRA, the problem would have been resolved by now.

Well, actually what would have happened is that you would have had all the Nationalist population of Northern Ireland that votes Sinn Fein (that's most of them now) joining the IRA, increasing the size of that organisation a thousand-fold.

The key is (and it's also the beginnings of an answer to Dave's question) is that you need effective strategies to detach the bombers from the communities they hide in. Randomised, state-sponsored slaughter of Irishmen would have cemented the bombers to their community and nurtured and re-created them, and it's the same lesson now in London.

Racial profiling, ill-thought out powers given to the police to harasss people without judicial overview, further repression of already frightened immigrant communities WILL NOT WORK in fighting terrorism. IT WILL CREATE IT!

I can't give Dave pat easy answers about what will work - because there aren't any.

But what you need is an approach that allows immigrant communities their fullest self-expression as new British citizens. British Muslims need to be able to campaign fully against destructive foreign policy in the Islamic world and stupid wars of conquest without being demonised as traitors (as for example the Sun has been doing with the Muslim academic on its front page over the last couple of days).

That process will empower rational and pro-Enlightenment leaders within Britain's Muslim community to win the battle for the hearts and minds of their angry youth against the awful reactionary fundamentalism of the Abu Hamza's of this world.

That it the key battle - giving the pissed-off Muslim youth a stake in the values of this country. Once we divert them away from the bombers and their sympthathisers, we will have won the "war against terrorism" in this country.

But of course you could just attack or fire-bomb a few mosques - what's the latest count in the last few days, Telford, Tower Hamlets, Norwich, Merton, Leeds, Bristol, Bradford, Liverpool - or stop the right for them to bring granny over from Pakistan.

See how that approach wins over the Muslim youth

 

[Simster]

Good post LI, totally agree.

 

[Simster]

This is just defeatist claptrap, terrorists are defeatable all it requires is the political will. I see you are not offering an alternative?

So how come the Israelis (with all their Western weaponry and realtive wealth) are still pulling bodybags out of cafes?

Are you telling me that the Israelis haven't had the "political will" to deal with Hezbolla for the past 45 years?

 

[looney]

Their not bring in grannies, their bringing in breeders which raises the relative muslim population and increases the problem we have. Best to solve the problem first.

Look at Holland if you think thats a good idea. 60 Mosques and churches burnt.

 

[Franks Wild Years]

Good work LI. Keep it up.

 

[Hampden Park]

Well, actually what would have happened is that you would have had all the Nationalist population of Northern Ireland that votes Sinn Fein (that's most of them now) joining the IRA, increasing the size of that organisation a thousand-fold.

The key is (and it's also the beginnings of an answer to Dave's question) is that you need effective strategies to detach the bombers from the communities they hide in. Randomised, state-sponsored slaughter of Irishmen would have cemented the bombers to their community and nurtured and re-created them, and it's the same lesson now in London.

Racial profiling, ill-thought out powers given to the police to harasss people without judicial overview, further repression of already frightened immigrant communities WILL NOT WORK in fighting terrorism. IT WILL CREATE IT!

I can't give Dave pat easy answers about what will work - because there aren't any.

But what you need is an approach that allows immigrant communities their fullest self-expression as new British citizens. British Muslims need to be able to campaign fully against destructive foreign policy in the Islamic world and stupid wars of conquest without being demonised as traitors (as for example the Sun has been doing with the Muslim academic on its front page over the last couple of days).

That process will empower rational and pro-Enlightenment leaders within Britain's Muslim community to win the battle for the hearts and minds of their angry youth against the awful reactionary fundamentalism of the Abu Hamza's of this world.

That it the key battle - giving the pissed-off Muslim youth a stake in the values of this country. Once we divert them away from the bombers and their sympthathisers, we will have won the "war against terrorism" in this country.

But of course you could just attack or fire-bomb a few mosques - what's the latest count in the last few days, Telford, Tower Hamlets, Norwich, Merton, Leeds, Bristol, Bradford, Liverpool - or stop the right for them to bring granny over from Pakistan.

See how that approach wins over the Muslim youth

dont think the muslin youth would be too bothered with that approach quite honestly. they will each reach the fork in their muslim road of life and decide to become a law abiding citizen down one fork, or become a suicide bomber down the other. british muslims my eye......................go back east

 

[e77]

dont think the muslin youth would be too bothered with that approach quite honestly. they will each reach the fork in their muslim road of life and decide to become a law abiding citizen down one fork, or become a suicide bomber down the other. british muslims my eye......................go back east

Are you seriously suggesting that fire bombing a mosque won't help turn a young muslim against the west ?

 

[Publius Ovidius]

"British Muslims need to be able to campaign fully against destructive foreign policy in the Islamic world and stupid wars of conquest without being demonised as traitors (as for example the Sun has been doing with the Muslim academic on its front page over the last couple of days)"

I understand what you are saying, and by and large agree, however:

Above you state "wars of conquest".....what are we talking about? Iraq? Afghanistan? I hardly think they are wars of conquesty.

secondly, thousands upon thousands marched against "destructive foreign policy" ie the invasion of Iraq, not just muslims, but christians , buddists, jews, hindu's sikhs Of those hundreds f thousands, I would have thought less than a miniscule amout of them would even contemplate being a suicide bomber.

The problem is this is a "muslim/Islamic" thing. I can't think of one example ( apart from japanese pilots) of any other religious group that actively straps explosives to themselves in order to kill innocent people...because they happen to have olive skin only plays into the hands of the facisits of our society.

With regards to the Sun, if the views they peddle put readers off reading them, they would go out of business....the problem is it is by far and away the largest read paper...its not all to do with some bird with her saggy tits out. The general population read and believe. they pander to xenophobia.

Interesting that Ken Livingstone openly championed Hamza's right to be here and spread his hatred, yet, he is the first to cry to the rest of us when his " people " are the very ones attacked with such barbarity

 

[3gulls]

what you need is an approach that allows immigrant communities their fullest self-expression as new British citizens. British Muslims need to be able to campaign fully against destructive foreign policy in the Islamic world and stupid wars of conquest without being demonised as traitors (as for example the Sun has been doing with the Muslim academic on its front page over the last couple of days).

giving the pissed-off Muslim youth a stake in the values of this country. Once we divert them away from the bombers and their sympthathisers, we will have won the "war against terrorism" in this country.

What a load of mamby-pamby crap. At least one of the bastard bombers had a degree, no doubt paid for by the British taxpayers. If they are not prepared to swear an oath of loyalty to the Crown, and accept OUR values, they should not be allowed in. People like you make me sick!

 

[Hampden Park]

Are you seriously suggesting that fire bombing a mosque won't help turn a young muslim against the west ?

not at all. some people feel the need to carry out revenge as it makes them feel better/vents their anger. no attacks on any of the mosques (as far as i know) caused any deaths nor injuries. if that were the intention then they would have done it when they all had their rugs out and were bowing down to the southeast. young muslims dont (as far as i have seen/heard of in brum) seem to give a toss about anyone but themselves. they will either knuckle down and get on with their lives ignoring all outside influencies or they will become a brainwashed suicide bomber who will listen to wankers like Hanza preaching about killing all others who dont believe in islam/mohammed etc.......

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

Understand one thing. The Muslim concept of death is not the same as ours. These bastard scum suicide bombers believe that as martyrs to an admittedly warped cause they will go straight to Allah who has SEVENTY TWO VIRGINS waiting for them.

What I don't get is what's in it for female suicide bombers ? Seventy two virgin men ? That'll be worth dying for won't it ?

Just remember that suicide bombers don't believe they're dying they're just moving on. Hence as they have no fear of death killing them isn't going to discourage other wouldbe suicide bombers.

Yoiui're absolutely right... except that it is not a MUSLIM concept of death. It's a RADICAL Muslim concept of death. These are fundamentalists, not unlike abortion bombers in the States.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

I've wondered that about the female suicide bombers as well.

It is true what bhaexpress has said because that is in the Koran where it says 'kill the infidel'

The vast majority of Muslims disown that part completely.

Hmmm Yorkie... bit out of concept there. The idea of JIhad... is supposed to be defensive not offensive.... and any Muslim cleric will also point out that Christians are not per se infidels.... 'The People of the BOOK' are not counted as enemies in the Koran.

 

[London Irish]

Interesting that Ken Livingstone openly championed Hamza's right to be here and spread his hatred, yet, he is the first to cry to the rest of us when his " people " are the very ones attacked with such barbarity

Are you sure you are not confusing Hamza with Yusuf Qaradawi, the Qatar cleric? Livingstone did get a lot of bad press, wrongly, for that.

 

[London Irish]

no attacks on any of the mosques (as far as i know) caused any deaths nor injuries.

Ah, that's alright then.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

There are various references about violence to non beleivers, most with caveats but most Muslims are not scolars neither are non-beleivers.


What it actually says is Kill or convert the unbeleivers, This is an islamic obligation. One of many that would make the average brits skin crawl.

Most Muslims interpet this by "Convert by example" live a good life. Sounds like a cop out but keeps em peaceful.

The Islamic world has periodically swung between peace and war, most muslims ancestors were forcibly converted 1,500 years after Mohammed died and they charged out of Arabia slaying etc.
Then there was the Mogul Khan dynasty.

It also obliges men to beat disobediant wives. There are no strictures how like there are in punishments for men who break the law(whipping).

Actually just about every Muslin is a scholar... when it comes to Koran...because they all attend Koranic schools. And yes, they actually believe the pacifistic approach.


How many Muslims in the last twenty years have knocked on your door for a chat about religion or advertised prayer meetings etc? And until last week how many British Muslims had bombed, maimed or shot British citizens/ During the same period how many mosques or Muslim houses were attacked and burned... and how many Christian centres?

It's only when we put our Anglo-Saxon cultural values into play do we begin to totally misunderstand what Islam represents.

As in every case the radical of any policial or religious group speak louder and act more violently than the thousands of mainstream supporters/believers. BY judging them all as one and the same we make ourselves as bad as they are.

 

[Publius Ovidius]

Are you sure you are not confusing Hamza with Yusuf Qaradawi, the Qatar cleric? Livingstone did get a lot of bad press, wrongly, for that.

I thought when the cleric was openly preching in the street, Ken was quoted in the Metro that he should be allowed to preach where he wanted and it amounted to police harrassment.

Some bloke on the bus I was on ( No 141)was ranting about it at anyone who would listen...most of us on the bus were trying to do the crossword!!!

 

[Highfields Seagull]

What a load of mamby-pamby crap. At least one of the bastard bombers had a degree, no doubt paid for by the British taxpayers. If they are not prepared to swear an oath of loyalty to the Crown, and accept OUR values, they should not be allowed in. People like you make me sick!

Oath of loyalty to the crown? Therefore to the monarchy? Those spongers [no doubt] paid for by the British taxpayers?

I don't know what OUR values are, because mine certainly aren't the same as yours.