For Anyone Thinking Of Voting Conservative...

[pork pie]

Its just my opinion like, it scarred the memory at the time, I was just left thinking how can a leader of a civilised country to this to the people she represents, it was not my vision of leadership.

Because the scum were not willing to respect the rule of law.

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

I'm not defending the economics of producing coal in the mid-eighties, I'm sure your right. My point was about the way in which the unions were battered by the state into submission using our police force in the way Orgreave and other places can testify too.
Its just my opinion like, it scarred the memory at the time, I was just left thinking how can a leader of a civilised country to this to the people she represents, it was not my vision of leadership.

So look to the Unions and their corrupt practices of guaranteed employment and wages, even for those not working (Liverpool Docks, for example). Look at their threats to take the country to a two day working week if they did not get their pay rises - their strikes and intimidation tactics. If we had capitulated, we would have had no country left - someone had to get tough with them at some point. Arthur and his merry men would have used their own police force given half a chance - it's just that the infighting and egos on the union side of the fence meant that the flying pickets and rent a mobs couldn't organise themselves effectively.

 

[GNF on Tour]

Because the scum were not willing to respect the rule of law.

Ok, well we can wait until tomorrow night to discuss democracy for beginners.

 

[simmo]

If thats your idea of banter then fine, but even as an young teenager I felt pretty troubled by that, it was us and them and there was real hate there. The gay thing is no comparision.
As for 74, yeah maybe so but I don't think the outcome of that strike had the real devisive effect that the 80's strike had on the country, real divides occurred nationwide, it was horrible. That was the point of my post.
I don't think Scargill was a loon, he was an aggrsive socialist trade unionist, one mans loon another mans hero.

It didn't have the devisive factor because both Heath and then Wilson's government after caved in to the miners and I can tell you it was far worse having power cuts everywhere 2 days a week than what happened under Thatcher. The incidents at Orgreave although bad did not effect everyone like the power cuts did.

I can remember Scargill going on TV (on Wogan) and saying it was his aim to bring down the government, he was a Communist loon and he was also a terrible trade union leader, virtually the moment the Tories announced about the pit closures he called a strike without a ballot of his members (because his aim was revolution and not the best intersts of the miners), the reason why he lost is become some areas didn't want to go on strike (for e.g Nottingham) and his actions divided the miners, pitching one union area against another. Thank goodness, Scargill was an absolute disaster unlike his predecessor in 1974 Joe Gormley.

Can you as a Thatcher hater please also answer this question

Thatcher left office 20 years ago and Labour have been in power for the last 13, far longer than she herself was in power. Why have they not put right all the wrongs that you perceived that she did. Why do they not re-nationalise BT, British Gas etc. Why do they not have massive council house building programme etc. etc. etc. They have had a thumping majority for the last three elections they basically could do whatever they wanted to.

 

[The Spanish]

Labour is about supporting the communities that need supporting.

the countries concern over immigration and the huge social changes since 1997 would suggest that in many parts of labours former heartlands, that is utter bollocks.

yes they support the underdog, unfortunately their underdogs in many places have trumped the existing underdogs for a place in labours hearts.

they are now a party for middle class liberals minorities and idiotic geordies and jocks who still think its the thirties. its a real shame.

 

[The Spanish]

Why was Thatcher evil?

because ben elton told them.

also she shut down all the rock and candy floss mines in brighton and destroyed its manufacturing base putting at least three people on the dole.

 

[simmo]

because ben elton told them.

also she shut down all the rock and candy floss mines in brighton and destroyed its manufacturing base putting at least three people on the dole.

And their teachers and university lecturers tell them this to. So it is cool to just keep on repeating that and make themselves look really clever.

 

[The Spanish]

makes me laugh. brighton has always been one of the most true blue towns in the country until relatively recently. economically its gut reaction would still be to be so. now you have all these fantasists on here splitting hairs about enclaves of different hardcore political support like it was f***ing belfast or something.

there is no end to some people on heres delusion when it comes to brighton. its an absolute embarassment. the whole country went Nu Labour, Nu Brighton is no exception. Ultimately though all of us non fantasists know what the heart of the town (sory CITY) is all about. And its not Labour, Green or Stonewall.

 

[Dandyman]

Whilst we can go back (again) to the Miners' strike, we need to remember that these were unproductive businesses. Just because they were historically the centre of the community does not mean that you have to keep them running at a loss - it was cheaper to close them and import coal/coke. Union wage demands, Scargill and the flying pickets did not help matters, and whilst it cannot be argued that this was not devastating for the communities and people concerned, the police had a job to do in ensuring that the plants produced something. Orgreave was a mess on both sides - bricks being thrown, cars being set alight and baton charges taking place. Remember that photos showing people in helmets and behind shields charging "ordinary" people always look bad - even if most of those people had never set foot in that county before and were only there to agitate. Propping up failing activities does not make for a successful, profitable state - if we had continued pouring money down the pits just to keep communities, we would have ended up in this state years ago. Not nice to hear, but it's the truth.

The Tories had two main agendas in the early 80's. One was the "Ridley Plan"
aimed at destroying the organised working class by picking off unions seen as "weak" first then using coercive methods to destroy the larger and stronger ones. The second item was the privatisation of the energy sector, which required a restructuring of the coal industry. An attempt at large-scale closures in 1981 was dropped when unofficial strikes spread rapidly and government ministers found themselves unprepared to fight at the time. This situation had changed by 1984 with a new NCB chairman, Ian MacGregor.

In March 1984, when five pits were announced for closure without proper review, official area strikes started in Yorkshire and Scotland. These were endorsed by the National Union of Mineworkers (NUM) executive which called on other areas to support them. It believed that there was a large hit list of vulnerable pits and that a stand had to be taken before the heart was ripped out of the industry and coal communities were shattered. Many of the other coalfields stopped work as a result of pickets, sometimes from other areas, though this was not generally successful in Nottinghamshire, where many miners considered their jobs safe. Calls for a national ballot (which was the NUM tradition, well before it ever became law later that year) foundered on the activists' view that no miner has the right to decide that another should lose his job.

The government used the full force of the state including the misuse (IMO) of the Police to batter the mining communities, carry out false arrests, assault strikers and smash up mining villages.

During the strike 11,291 people were arrested, of whom 8,392 were charged, mainly for breach of the peace, obstructing the police and obstructing the highway. Offences that I would hope any football fan would recognise as politically inspired nonsense aiming at breaking the strike in the best reactionary traditions of the Police.

 

[Simster]

Scargill was held up as a trouble making class-war mongering twat by all but his own supporters, and at times it was understandable. I remember him coming on Breakfast TV once and stating that he rejected a deal with McGregor because his dad had once told him that if he did something his bosses agreed with, then he was doing something wrong. That was the sort of intransigence that the government were up against.

However, I also remember Scargill warning that 60,000 mining jobs would be lost over the next 5-10 years if the miners ever caved in. The Tory press, the Thatcher government and the mining management all mocked him and told the miners he was deluded, scaremongernig or just plain wrong.

But these were the facts: at the time of the strike in 1984/5, we had 180,000 miners employed in 170 collieries. By 1994, only 8,000 remained. Scargill had under-estimated by 2 thirds.

 

[Dandyman]

makes me laugh. brighton has always been one of the most true blue towns in the country until relatively recently. economically its gut reaction would still be to be so. now you have all these fantasists on here splitting hairs about enclaves of different hardcore political support like it was f***ing belfast or something.

there is no end to some people on heres delusion when it comes to brighton. its an absolute embarassment. the whole country went Nu Labour, Nu Brighton is no exception. Ultimately though all of us non fantasists know what the heart of the town (sory CITY) is all about. And its not Labour, Green or Stonewall.

So why did it have at least one labour MP in the 1960s?

 

[The Spanish]

So why did it have at least one labour MP in the 1960s?

i think citing the example of one labour mp in the 60s reinforces my point if anything.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

And their teachers and university lecturers tell them this to. So it is cool to just keep on repeating that and make themselves look really clever.

Nail just been hit squarely by hammer.

The supposed "I'm al'right, f**k you" attitude portrayed as the old Tory belief has in the last decade turned full circle. The huge amount of people now on the public purse has created this. With fewer and fewer people now employed in the private sector and their pensions having been raped by Brown, the money creation has gone. Meanwhile pay and conditions along with job creation has prevailed in the public sector. These people are now frightened for their cushy little numbers and will sprout shit and attempt to protect their empires.

Guess who I'll be voting for?

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

The Tories had two main agendas in the early 80's. One was the "Ridley Plan"
aimed at destroying the organised working class by picking off unions seen as "weak" first then using coercive methods to destroy the larger and stronger ones. The second item was the privatisation of the energy sector, which required a restructuring of the coal industry. An attempt at large-scale closures in 1981 was dropped when unofficial strikes spread rapidly and government ministers found themselves unprepared to fight at the time. This situation had changed by 1984 with a new NCB chairman, Ian MacGregor.

In March 1984, when five pits were announced for closure without proper review, official area strikes started in Yorkshire and Scotland. These were endorsed by the National Union of Mineworkers (NUM) executive which called on other areas to support them. It believed that there was a large hit list of vulnerable pits and that a stand had to be taken before the heart was ripped out of the industry and coal communities were shattered. Many of the other coalfields stopped work as a result of pickets, sometimes from other areas, though this was not generally successful in Nottinghamshire, where many miners considered their jobs safe. Calls for a national ballot (which was the NUM tradition, well before it ever became law later that year) foundered on the activists' view that no miner has the right to decide that another should lose his job.

The government used the full force of the state including the misuse (IMO) of the Police to batter the mining communities, carry out false arrests, assault strikers and smash up mining villages.

During the strike 11,291 people were arrested, of whom 8,392 were charged, mainly for breach of the peace, obstructing the police and obstructing the highway. Offences that I would hope any football fan would recognise as politically inspired nonsense aiming at breaking the strike in the best reactionary traditions of the Police.

Throwing rocks, home made weapons, setting fire to cars, intimidation of strike breakers, flying pickets? You can do better than this left-wing reactionary shite Dandyman! The Government used the State to maintain the Queen's order - you would have expected the same had right or left wingers been marching through towns and disrupting the lawful behaviour of others. Scargill agitated and lost, thankfully, and now touts his new/old Communism as the way ahead. I think you'll find that the ballot was not carried out because the Miners' Union had vetoed the two previous attempts at a ballot under Joe Gormley (sorry, BARON Joe Gormley the Labour peer) and didn't want to run the risk of this again!

 

[Simster]

Scargill agitated and lost, thankfully,

The miners caved in after a year and over the next 8 years, 172,000 jobs were lost. How was that good news then?

 

[DJ Leon]

Whilst we can go back (again) to the Miners' strike, we need to remember that these were unproductive businesses. Just because they were historically the centre of the community does not mean that you have to keep them running at a loss...

Like say, the automotive industry or the bankers. They were helped out though, propped up, funded by the taxpayer. Why? Couldn't these unproductive businesses gone to the wall and the stronger ones taken their place? Where's the free market ideology here?

 

[User removed 4]

The Tories had two main agendas in the early 80's. One was the "Ridley Plan"
aimed at destroying the organised working class by picking off unions seen as "weak" first then using coercive methods to destroy the larger and stronger ones. The second item was the privatisation of the energy sector, which required a restructuring of the coal industry. An attempt at large-scale closures in 1981 was dropped when unofficial strikes spread rapidly and government ministers found themselves unprepared to fight at the time. This situation had changed by 1984 with a new NCB chairman, Ian MacGregor.

In March 1984, when five pits were announced for closure without proper review, official area strikes started in Yorkshire and Scotland. These were endorsed by the National Union of Mineworkers (NUM) executive which called on other areas to support them. It believed that there was a large hit list of vulnerable pits and that a stand had to be taken before the heart was ripped out of the industry and coal communities were shattered. Many of the other coalfields stopped work as a result of pickets, sometimes from other areas, though this was not generally successful in Nottinghamshire, where many miners considered their jobs safe. Calls for a national ballot (which was the NUM tradition, well before it ever became law later that year) foundered on the activists' view that no miner has the right to decide that another should lose his job.

The government used the full force of the state including the misuse (IMO) of the Police to batter the mining communities, carry out false arrests, assault strikers and smash up mining villages.

During the strike 11,291 people were arrested, of whom 8,392 were charged, mainly for breach of the peace, obstructing the police and obstructing the highway. Offences that I would hope any football fan would recognise as politically inspired nonsense aiming at breaking the strike in the best reactionary traditions of the Police.

Lions led by donkeys, scargill started that unofficial
strike with a small house and a big union, and ended it with a big house and a small union, tosser of the highest order.

 

[pork pie]

So why did it have at least one labour MP in the 1960s?

Are you talking about Dennis Hobden - the toad like little man? He lived in a private house in Woodingdean and was hardly your typical red "working class hero" from those days. He used to be MP for Brighton Kemptown, when it was a run-down shit hole, I believe?

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

The miners caved in after a year and over the next 8 years, 172,000 jobs were lost. How was that good news then?

Because if Scargill had won, the country would have been held to ransom by the Unions. It is never good that jobs are lost, but expecting to have a job because that's the way it's always been is not a recipe for success. We know the pits were not productive, it's a shame that communities had to die, but if we followed Scargill's way of thought we would still have wattle and daub houses because we don't want to put the wattle and daubers out of business!

 

[Dandyman]

i think citing the example of one labour mp in the 60s reinforces my point if anything.

Kemptown was Labour from 1964 to 1966 and again from 1966 to 1970. It might be a relatively brief period of time but hardly makes the town the solid blue some would like to claim.