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For Anyone Thinking Of Voting Conservative...
- Thread starter C17BHA
- Start date
Kalimantan Gull
Well-known member
The UK consumes 66 million tonnes of coal per year, 44 million tonnes of which is imported. We are the world's fourth biggest importer of coal, behind Japan, S. Korea and Taiwan.
So we still use coal, we need coal, but we shut down the mines to spite the unions. Good work Thatch
John Byrnes Mullet
Global Circumnavigator
Thatcher should have been hanged for what she did. Turning this country into a shallow grave for industry and family values.
Kalimantan Gull
Well-known member
People should pay more attention to stats than to anecdotes, media scaremongering/search for a dramatic story; people's witterings on NSC, etc.
TRENDS IN CRIME
BCS crimes rose steadily during the 1980s and early 1990s, peaking in 1995. Between 1995 and 2004/05 total BCS crime fell and has since stabilised, with the recent apparent increase not being statistically significant, according to the Home Office.
TRENDS IN SERIOUS CRIME SINCE 1981
This graph illustrates how crime figures have changed by taking, for illustrative purposes, crime in 1981 as a base figure and recording change relative to that on an 'index' over time.
The 'spike' in all police recorded crime around 1998 occurred following the addition of many extra offences to the notifiable list and improvements in the recording of police data with the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard [NCRS] from 2002/03.
TRENDS IN VIOLENT CRIME
There were 1,046,437 offences of violence against the person recorded by the police in 2006/07, which represented a fall of 1%. There were also falls in sexual offences, down seven per cent to 57,542, but robberies rose three per cent to 101,370.
Recorded violent crime has more than doubled in the eight years between 1998/99 and 2006/07. The Home Office attributes this increases in recording of violent crime following the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard (NCRS) in April 2002.
TRENDS IN CRIME
BCS crimes rose steadily during the 1980s and early 1990s, peaking in 1995. Between 1995 and 2004/05 total BCS crime fell and has since stabilised, with the recent apparent increase not being statistically significant, according to the Home Office.
TRENDS IN SERIOUS CRIME SINCE 1981
This graph illustrates how crime figures have changed by taking, for illustrative purposes, crime in 1981 as a base figure and recording change relative to that on an 'index' over time.
The 'spike' in all police recorded crime around 1998 occurred following the addition of many extra offences to the notifiable list and improvements in the recording of police data with the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard [NCRS] from 2002/03.
TRENDS IN VIOLENT CRIME
There were 1,046,437 offences of violence against the person recorded by the police in 2006/07, which represented a fall of 1%. There were also falls in sexual offences, down seven per cent to 57,542, but robberies rose three per cent to 101,370.
Recorded violent crime has more than doubled in the eight years between 1998/99 and 2006/07. The Home Office attributes this increases in recording of violent crime following the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard (NCRS) in April 2002.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,827
so it was the Conservatives fault that China has cheaper labour? no really i dont understand, you want a company to stay here, do you want the government to subsidise it? thats fine, but you also accept high taxes and costs of products if we do so?
seriously wtf? i know nothing of this strike, but you blame a government for the actions of a private company? as for european labour, its the EU thats done that, which Labour fully support and signed up for more including opening up east european economic migration (which the French and Germans restricted - gret for consistancy the old EU). if they had striked in the past 10 years would you never vote Labour?
so because some wanted to continue working, thats also the Tories fault? no. you vote Labour because you are a tribal Labour voter, these are justifications, but you'd vote labour anyway.
the mines that where not economically efficient. i cant remember the details now, but some cost 4x more than imported coal. theres a strong argument for keeping them open in some areas to create employment and a strategic coal resource alive, but one has to also ask this: would you accept electricity at twice the current price?
Jam The Man
Well-known member
The most sensible reply on this thread so far...
User removed 4
New member
All the points i would have made as well,number 40 is especially galling, £825 million to india over the last 3 years , they are a nuclear power and have a space programme for f*** sake !
I am surprised that after 13 years the Labour Party has chosen to focus its campaign entirely on trying to create a climate of fear about a Tory government. Barely a word on what they have achieved. Yes I know that the state of the country's finances is now dire (due to the banks), and I can even agree that maybe we overspent, and some was wasted, and there will be room for efficiency savings.
However if you are a Tory who has stated on this board that the Labour Government has been a 'disaster' you are now invited to lay into the list below, and tell us why increased school funding, extra nurses and doctors, police, shiny new schools and hospitals, the minimum wage, and gaining peace in Northern Ireland are a problem to you
Oh and by the way I am voting Lib Dem for tactical reasons.
16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.
Some of your points are good, some are juggling with figures and others nothing but poltical spin. But the one above it the one that really grinds with me when I hear Labour quote it - especially as someone that's had two children since it was introduced. Yes, I do have the right to take 2 weeks paternity leave but it's next to useless considering I will only get £120 for each week I take off - just at a time when I can't afford to lose half a months salary !!!! It's a law that generally benefits the well paid not the ordinary worker so basically it's a load of crap !
I don't think that's fair. What this has done is ensure you are legally entitled to take an additional two weeks of leave without the threat of losing your job. Sure, you may decide that it doesn't make financial sense, but on the other hand, if your wife has a caesarian and can't move for a week, yet your employer expects you back in work because you've already booked your 20 day entitlement, I think this law proves very handy.
drew
Drew
Quote:
Originally Posted by PILTDOWN MAN
Here goes
1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.
Brought about by previous Tory policies and global economy But it took them 18 years to achieve it. Have you forgotten the boom and bust periods during that time!
2. Low mortgage rates.
Ditto with above and rates set by B of E not government Who passed control to the BoE in the first place. Something many Tories objected to.
3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.
Raising the wages of others thus leaving the bottom earners still at the bottom What?
4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.
Where? Plastic coppers with no powers maybe.
5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.
Completely misleading crap. Serious crime at an all time high plus unreported crime (again misleading reported but somehow not "reportable"!) at an all time high. Detection rates also at an all time low. NEXT. Already countered by another post. Must be your Tory spin that makes you write this.
6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.
Not by some on here! Can't argue with that. However, see your comment on point 36. Should be they're, not their!
7. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.
Nothing's free, we are all paying for it, remember. It's called society, ie supporting those that can't afford it.
8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.
Borrowed money What!
9. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching
assistants.
More revealing is the disparity between the 1st figure and the 2nd.......appears like job creation. So, one minute people complain about class sizes or the amount of paperwork teachers have to complete and when additional staff are provided to assist they then complain about that.
10. Employment is at its highest level ever. (NOT NOW THANKS TO THE BANKS)
No its not the figures are massaged. School leavers are not even recorded. All time high for people not employed but not claiming.
11. 85,000 more nurses.
Good
12. 32,000 more doctors.
GP's wages have double in the last few years but their hours greatly reduced. This wage raise was forced on local NHS Trust but their budgets to pay this increase reduced. I'm friendly one the local Trusts CE's very interesting.
13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.
Not got rid of three levels of management above though.
14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.
More bureaucracy and totally unfair on the English- case divide and rule.
15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.
See above.
16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.
Have you ever owed/run a small business? enough said Have you ever been a parent! My company gave me two weeks paternity on full pay.
17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.
Nought for free!
18. Record number of students in higher education.
With less jobs at the other end. University is for the elite (academic) not for the masses. The more go the more the qualification is diluted. Wouldn't disagree with that. Remove vocational training from Universities and return them to old fashioned polytechnics. However, remind me who expanded the universities system in the first place and made it more competitive?
19. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.
In line with inflation just
20. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.
OK
21. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
Yes and now the perpetrators get more rights than victims. GOOD WORK.
22. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.
OK You are inconsistent. On other points re pensioners you go on about many of them being able to afford a lot more things.
23. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.
Cross party politics there I believe But I believe History showed that it faultered under Tories and most credit goes to Mo Mowlam
24. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.
See no 16. I've been a full time worker for years. Haven't had a holiday (time off) above three days for 9 years. So you are a slave to your job. If you have your own business, doesn't seem much point if you can't actually take time off to enjoy your life, unless of course you work as a professional gigolo then you might not want time off!
25. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.
A f***ing load more put near it by the raiding of private pensions!!!Nothing of course to do with the pension holidays taken by companies in the 80s and 90s.
26. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.
What is relative, to you or me?
27. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.
Country can not afford to give it to people earning above £30 000 May be the system needs adjusting but the principle is fine.
28. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.
Built during a labour government with substandard materials. Where is your evidence. Most social homes built during the 40s and 50s were off better standard than their private counterparts. The improvements relate to things such as double glazing, insulation, more economic boilers etc. Of course, the lack of investment by the tories didn't help.
29. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.
OK Rather a simple comment relating to, what was under the tories, a major problem. Was it not something like 18 months for a hip replacement. Ok so long as you didn't need to walk in the meantime
30. Banned fox hunting.
You are joking, right? Seriously, it was banned under a Labour government. Good job to.
31. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.
BY privatisation. Plus the Tories with real help from the unions managed to close all those nasty polluting shit holes up north. The rivers are not clean because of privatisation, but inspite of it. Do you honestly think that the private companies spent millions out of their profits to clean up rivers and beaches or was it perhaps because they were forced to do by government regalation?
32. Free TV licences for over-75s.
But why? Most can easily afford it. As mentioned, inconsistant.
33. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.
OK
34. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.
It was under Tories May be, but how long did you have to wait. Until the autopsy?
35. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.
Again why most can afford it.
36. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.
So they can spunk it away when their 18, shit idea, a gimmick which again we can not afford.
37. Free eye test for over 60s.
Why?
38. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.
No they just renamed some training. Hardly if any at all, indentured apprenticeships remain. That is complete bollocks. They are not apprenticeships. That's like calling some one who looks after pensions a pensions technician.
39. Free entry to national museums and galleries.
Are getting the picture now, WE CAN NOT AFFORD IT. FREE entry YES BUT SOME ONE HAS TO PAY FOR IT.
40. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.
NO NO NO no.....no. If you had no money and couldn't pay your bills would you go and borrow some and give it to some one else? Thus leaving you in a more shit.
Possibly the only thing I agree with you on is the aid to India, despite the fact there is £12b of trade between us. Rather see the money spent on a more deserving country.
Originally Posted by PILTDOWN MAN
Here goes
1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.
Brought about by previous Tory policies and global economy But it took them 18 years to achieve it. Have you forgotten the boom and bust periods during that time!
2. Low mortgage rates.
Ditto with above and rates set by B of E not government Who passed control to the BoE in the first place. Something many Tories objected to.
3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.
Raising the wages of others thus leaving the bottom earners still at the bottom What?
4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.
Where? Plastic coppers with no powers maybe.
5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.
Completely misleading crap. Serious crime at an all time high plus unreported crime (again misleading reported but somehow not "reportable"!) at an all time high. Detection rates also at an all time low. NEXT. Already countered by another post. Must be your Tory spin that makes you write this.
6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.
Not by some on here! Can't argue with that. However, see your comment on point 36. Should be they're, not their!
7. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.
Nothing's free, we are all paying for it, remember. It's called society, ie supporting those that can't afford it.
8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.
Borrowed money What!
9. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching
assistants.
More revealing is the disparity between the 1st figure and the 2nd.......appears like job creation. So, one minute people complain about class sizes or the amount of paperwork teachers have to complete and when additional staff are provided to assist they then complain about that.
10. Employment is at its highest level ever. (NOT NOW THANKS TO THE BANKS)
No its not the figures are massaged. School leavers are not even recorded. All time high for people not employed but not claiming.
11. 85,000 more nurses.
Good
12. 32,000 more doctors.
GP's wages have double in the last few years but their hours greatly reduced. This wage raise was forced on local NHS Trust but their budgets to pay this increase reduced. I'm friendly one the local Trusts CE's very interesting.
13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.
Not got rid of three levels of management above though.
14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.
More bureaucracy and totally unfair on the English- case divide and rule.
15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.
See above.
16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.
Have you ever owed/run a small business? enough said Have you ever been a parent! My company gave me two weeks paternity on full pay.
17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.
Nought for free!
18. Record number of students in higher education.
With less jobs at the other end. University is for the elite (academic) not for the masses. The more go the more the qualification is diluted. Wouldn't disagree with that. Remove vocational training from Universities and return them to old fashioned polytechnics. However, remind me who expanded the universities system in the first place and made it more competitive?
19. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.
In line with inflation just
20. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.
OK
21. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
Yes and now the perpetrators get more rights than victims. GOOD WORK.
22. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.
OK You are inconsistent. On other points re pensioners you go on about many of them being able to afford a lot more things.
23. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.
Cross party politics there I believe But I believe History showed that it faultered under Tories and most credit goes to Mo Mowlam
24. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.
See no 16. I've been a full time worker for years. Haven't had a holiday (time off) above three days for 9 years. So you are a slave to your job. If you have your own business, doesn't seem much point if you can't actually take time off to enjoy your life, unless of course you work as a professional gigolo then you might not want time off!
25. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.
A f***ing load more put near it by the raiding of private pensions!!!Nothing of course to do with the pension holidays taken by companies in the 80s and 90s.
26. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.
What is relative, to you or me?
27. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.
Country can not afford to give it to people earning above £30 000 May be the system needs adjusting but the principle is fine.
28. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.
Built during a labour government with substandard materials. Where is your evidence. Most social homes built during the 40s and 50s were off better standard than their private counterparts. The improvements relate to things such as double glazing, insulation, more economic boilers etc. Of course, the lack of investment by the tories didn't help.
29. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.
OK Rather a simple comment relating to, what was under the tories, a major problem. Was it not something like 18 months for a hip replacement. Ok so long as you didn't need to walk in the meantime
30. Banned fox hunting.
You are joking, right? Seriously, it was banned under a Labour government. Good job to.
31. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.
BY privatisation. Plus the Tories with real help from the unions managed to close all those nasty polluting shit holes up north. The rivers are not clean because of privatisation, but inspite of it. Do you honestly think that the private companies spent millions out of their profits to clean up rivers and beaches or was it perhaps because they were forced to do by government regalation?
32. Free TV licences for over-75s.
But why? Most can easily afford it. As mentioned, inconsistant.
33. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.
OK
34. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.
It was under Tories May be, but how long did you have to wait. Until the autopsy?
35. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.
Again why most can afford it.
36. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.
So they can spunk it away when their 18, shit idea, a gimmick which again we can not afford.
37. Free eye test for over 60s.
Why?
38. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.
No they just renamed some training. Hardly if any at all, indentured apprenticeships remain. That is complete bollocks. They are not apprenticeships. That's like calling some one who looks after pensions a pensions technician.
39. Free entry to national museums and galleries.
Are getting the picture now, WE CAN NOT AFFORD IT. FREE entry YES BUT SOME ONE HAS TO PAY FOR IT.
40. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.
NO NO NO no.....no. If you had no money and couldn't pay your bills would you go and borrow some and give it to some one else? Thus leaving you in a more shit.
Possibly the only thing I agree with you on is the aid to India, despite the fact there is £12b of trade between us. Rather see the money spent on a more deserving country.
drew
Drew
It isn't crap, that £120 is better than nothing. Over time it may well increase. Would you rather not have the right to take that time and use up your holiday entitlement instead.
NMH
Banned
User removed 4
New member
A more deserving country ? How about the UK taxpayer who put the money up in the first place and now has a deficit of f*** knows how much hanging round their neck.
Those of who can't afford to take two weeks at £120 per week or don't work for a company who pays full pay for the period have to take it as holiday anyway - the policy is gesture politics - "look what good we've done" despite the fact a majority of people can't afford to take it.
Given the current level of debt I doubt very much it will increase in our life times - I would expect it to be left as it is and just dwindle away as inflation eats into its value.
Or Zaire or Ethiopia, where most people haven't got the grain and water required to feed themselves.
Barrel of Fun
Abort, retry, fail
It is an accepted fact that crime was falling due to Conservative policies and seeing the back of a recession. Labour installed their own policies and crime continued to fall, but at a lesser extent.
User removed 4
New member
If you're that concerned then you f***ing pay them out of your pocket , i'd rather the money was spent here on life prolonging cancer drugs and suchlike, rather than being funneled into corrupt officials bank accounts.i dont glory i these people suffering , but my concern is for me and mine, a close friend since childhood is threatened with having the drugs that keep his leukaemia at bay and consequently him alive taken away, because they are not 'cost effective', well i'm sorry but as far as i'm concerned zaire and ethiopia shouldnt get a look in if our own people are dying through lack of funds.
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People should pay more attention to stats than to anecdotes, media scaremongering/search for a dramatic story; people's witterings on NSC, etc.
TRENDS IN CRIME
BCS crimes rose steadily during the 1980s and early 1990s, peaking in 1995. Between 1995 and 2004/05 total BCS crime fell and has since stabilised, with the recent apparent increase not being statistically significant, according to the Home Office.
TRENDS IN SERIOUS CRIME SINCE 1981
This graph illustrates how crime figures have changed by taking, for illustrative purposes, crime in 1981 as a base figure and recording change relative to that on an 'index' over time.
The 'spike' in all police recorded crime around 1998 occurred following the addition of many extra offences to the notifiable list and improvements in the recording of police data with the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard [NCRS] from 2002/03.
TRENDS IN VIOLENT CRIME
There were 1,046,437 offences of violence against the person recorded by the police in 2006/07, which represented a fall of 1%. There were also falls in sexual offences, down seven per cent to 57,542, but robberies rose three per cent to 101,370.
Recorded violent crime has more than doubled in the eight years between 1998/99 and 2006/07. The Home Office attributes this increases in recording of violent crime following the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard (NCRS) in April 2002.
All these are just statistics. Who was it said "There's lies, damn lies, and statistics"?
I used to be an accountant, figures can be manipulated, e.g. by taking some "crimes" out (like parking) and making other actions "Crimes".
It's like the unemployment figures, and increasingly worryingly the trade figures. But then we don't seem to have a "Balance of Payments" any more, maybe there were two many red zeros in it.
Barrel of Fun
Abort, retry, fail
So rather than offering a helping hand to someone like Haiti, we should just say... tough luck?
Family values ,my arse....As someone recently said,the Labour definition of a family is three people who share a fridge!