EU and AstraZeneca

[beorhthelm]

But the cut is in Az's predicted volumes. If they thought 'production schedules' were late, why did they only announce the cut 5 days ago ?

And if the UK's vaccines were suddenly cut by 60% I'm guessing we may be a little disappointed if our Government didn't make a 'public song and dance' about it

presumably only 5 days ago that AZ knew it wouldnt hit the production target, based on latest yields and changes required. of course we'd be making a fuss if it happened here too, but it hasnt because of extra time to ramp up production. the other question is why AZ is bearing the brunt of this when Pfizer announced similar cuts and less said about other suppliers the better (not even near making their deliveries, one hasnt gone to Phase III trial yet)

 

[WATFORD zero]

I'd have little sympathy with the UK government if they had acted in the same way as the EU. Our government took decisive action and brought vaccines early and ensured approval quickly .... and by the looks of it ensured a cast iron contract. If I was a resident of the EU I'd be mightily pissed off for their delays and the idea that they thought they deserved a discount on the vaccine. EU residents will now die needlessly, not because of AZ, not because of the UK but because of the EU. It's Greece all over again - the EU kills people.

If you could publish the evidence of this I'd be interested, because I would have expected it to fall under an NDC, just like the EU ones you were deriding a few posts back

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Bit of home bias there - why should we believe that the occupants of Nummer Zehn or Numéro Dix are any less dirty or tricksy?

Because the current number 10 is the dirtiest and tricksyest number 10 in living memory, I suppose. I mean they even lied to the Queen.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Then why would AstraZeneca commit to unreal delivery volumes (until 5 days ago), particularly given that they had just gone through 3 months experience of the issues associated with scaling up ? (And please keep to the topic, my opinion of Johnson is neither here not there)

That is difficult to say. I am inclined to believe Pascal Soriot when he talks about unexpected delays and the process involved in scaling up. He is a Frenchman and the company has many European executives. There seems to be an implication coming out of the EU that they are somehow anti EU which is ludicrous. Any industrial process faces scaling up challenges and unexpected delays and the simple truth is that the 3 month delay cost the company that time in its Belgian plant. Turning your question around; why would AstraZeneca do anything but work at their best to fulfill these orders ?

 

[Billy the Fish]

And if the UK's vaccines were suddenly cut by 60% I'm guessing we may be a little disappointed if our Government didn't make a 'public song and dance' about it

By all accounts that did happen.

But it happened last year before the rollout because the contracts were signed and investment happened in June rather than October in the EU's case.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Then why would AstraZeneca commit to unreal delivery volumes (until 5 days ago), particularly given that they had just gone through 3 months experience of the issues associated with scaling up ? (And please keep to the topic, my opinion of Johnson is neither here not there)

AstraZeneca did not commit to unreal delivery volumes. The contract was on a "best effort" basis where they said they would try to deliver those volumes.

I don't actually know what the difficulties are in starting from scratch to build these European plants to make vaccines. But bear in mind that they didn't have the buildings, the equipment, the staff, the local know-how, and were already working flat out on existing orders, I imagine there were difficulties. It isn't always possible, in those circumstances, to know exactly how long the difficulties will take to solve.

Did you ever hear the tale of the Little Red Hen? The LRH planted the wheat, harvested it, ground it, and baked the bread, with no help from the other farmyard animals. And the other farmyard animals were put out when she wouldn't share the bread.

The UK funded or part-funded the research with Oxford University providing some of the researchers, and the UK put up the early money to buy the stuff with no guarantee that it would work so that AstraZeneca could expand and gear up for large scale production. Then 3 months later the EU decided that that looks like a good vaccine, we will have some, and we want to be first.

 

[WATFORD zero]

This has come at a timely moment for Brexit voters because it's playing out a scenario we've been telling you for years would end up happening.

The Commission and it's unelected politicians pretending to be civil servants have used the crisis for another power grab. Up until now they've gone largely under the radar and focused on wishy washy things that only lightly affect Joe public's lives like environmental policies and WTD, things that you lot love to use as an example of how great the EU is.

Now they've decided to get involved in the most important and heavily scrutinised event of the last 100 years and thoroughly cocked it up. They've single handedly exploded the myths about buying power and market size being everything. They've highlighted the fact that unelected politicians are running the show and they're now in a panic. Listen to Stella Kyriakides lashing out at everyone, she knows they've been found out for what they are - a psuedostate run by unelected politicians i.e her!

Maybe now it's time to admit you've been lied to and the EU has actually been gaslighting you all these years!

I know you are trying to drag this off topic and get it put in the Bear Pit, but trying to claim a dispute between a manufacturer and the EU as some sort of Brexit 'win' whilst it's obviously a loss for the whole world

The last 4 weeks has proven exactly what you voted for, even though you failry obviously didn't understand at the time. Take responsibility for what you've done.

And I've been 'gaslighted'

Maybe you should use this to start a 'benefits' list over on the Brexit thread.

Anyway, back on topic

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I think the point is that if we were still in the EU we would be subject to their vaccination procurement, approval and distribution strategy ie membership had everything to do with our ability to sign contracts in a timely manner. The EU hasn’t actually approved use of the Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine as yet, although it is apparently imminent.

My understanding is that the UK is not and never has been beholden to the EU over drug approvals and use. Drugs are approved in the UK by the MHRA (Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency). To save money, most licence applications were done on a Europe-wide basis through the European agency (EMA) but this is and never was a legal requirement, with the MHRA having full ability to consider applications for licences for use in the UK by itself.

So this spat has nothing to do with Brexit, and 'The EU' is making a bit of a prat of itself in this instance. Just like they have over many other issues in the past. Not enough for me to want to leave the EU, though. The argument that the EU stops the UK from doing this and that is, and always was, total bollocks. The UK follows the EU over non-core issues out of choice, not compulsion. For example we always had control over migration from outside the EU, but chose to let hoards of people in.

Fake news again

 

[WATFORD zero]

That is difficult to say. I am inclined to believe Pascal Soriot when he talks about unexpected delays and the process involved in scaling up. He is a Frenchman and the company has many European executives. There seems to be an implication coming out of the EU that they are somehow anti EU which is ludicrous. Any industrial process faces scaling up challenges and unexpected delays and the simple truth is that the 3 month delay cost the company that time in its Belgian plant. Turning your question around; why would AstraZeneca do anything but work at their best to fulfill these orders ?

But you said the delays were the fault of the EU ?

As I said earlier, if the UK's vaccines had been cut by 60% at 5 days notice, (albeit a few weeks earlier) would that have been the UK's fault ?

 

[Billy the Fish]

And I've been 'gaslighted'

*gaslit

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

If you could publish the evidence of this I'd be interested, because I would have expected it to fall under an NDC, just like the EU ones you were deriding a few posts back

This is what Pascal Soriot has said about the contracts:

"First of all, we have different plants and they have different yields and different productivity. One of the plans with the highest yield is in the UK because it started earlier. It also had its own issues, but we solved all, it has a good productivity, but it's the UK plant because it started earlier. Anyway, we didn't commit with the EU, by the way. It's not a commitment we have to Europe: it’s a best effort, we said we are going to make our best effort. The reason why we said that is because Europe at the time wanted to be supplied more or less at the same time as the UK, even though the contract was signed three months later. So we said, “ok, we're going to do our best, we’re going to try, but we cannot commit contractually because we are three months behind UK”. We knew it was a super stretch goal and we know it's a big issue, this pandemic. But our contract is not a contractual commitment. It's a best effort. Basically we said we're going to try our best, but we can't guarantee we're going to succeed. In fact, getting there, we are a little bit delayed”.

You appear to be defending the indefensible by implicitly criticizing AsteaZeneca. This is a company producing vaccines at zero profit and working at best endeavors with all buyers to save lives. The EU seems to be taking a similar approach to your good self.

 

[Eeyore]

Reading that the EU has invested heavily in the Oxford vaccine.

If that is the case then I'm beginning to see their side of the story.

Can someone please shed any light on that ?

 

[WATFORD zero]

By all accounts that did happen.

But it happened last year before the rollout because the contracts were signed and investment happened in June rather than October in the EU's case.

The production volumes were cut, but it made no difference because we hadn't started production ?:

I'd love to see the link to that 'by all accounts story'

 

[Billy the Fish]

The production volumes were cut, but it made no difference because we hadn't started production ?:

I'd love to see the link to that 'by all accounts story'

It's all in this thread, [MENTION=34242]Neville's Breakfast[/MENTION] is putting the information in front of you!

From Pascal Soriot:


"One of the plans with the highest yield is in the UK because it started earlier. It also had its own issues, but we solved all, it has a good productivity, but it's the UK plant because it started earlier."

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

But you said the delays were the fault of the EU ?

As I said earlier, if the UK's vaccines had been cut by 60% at 5 days notice, (albeit a few weeks earlier) would that have been the UK's fault ?

Yes, they are, because the 3 month delay affected AZs ability to invest in scaling up technology. I have explained this in another reply.

 

[Eeyore]

There are some that stalk these boards that support modern day slavery , through their advocacy of illegal immigration.
On a side note, the country has now whiffed the coffee, the EU are not our friends, never have been, they want to get their paws on our vaccines...

A vaccine is vaccine. It saves lives. No life is worth more than the other.

I thought we'd stopped using the language of Airfix patriotism, but The Sun is alive and well.

A lot of the entries in this thread have been a good read on both sides of the arguement.

Others are just like someone taking a big dump in the middle of the thread.

 

[beorhthelm]

Reading that the EU has invested heavily in the Oxford vaccine.

If that is the case then I'm beginning to see their side of the story.

Can someone please shed aa light on that ?

they pre-ordered supply. that is not the same as "investing" under normal sense, vaccine was already developed and in phase III trials by time they put in the orders. some of any upfront payments (unknown) would have gone to establishing the production process, so can be called investment if you squint at it.

 

[Billy the Fish]

The production volumes were cut, but it made no difference because we hadn't started production ?:

I'd love to see the link to that 'by all accounts story'

Nice edit, you got that one in quickly!

Stop trying to misrepresent what I'm saying. I realise that 's your MO so you probably can't help but do it.

I clearly said production issues happened before rollout in the UK (as per your post before the quick edit)

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The simple fact is that we made the decision to go alone on the vaccine whilst we were under the jurisdiction of the EU, so Brexit had no effect whatsoever.

We have of course left the EU for over a year and were free to make all the trade deals we wanted during the transition period, specifically to avoid some of the situations we now find ourselves in. (But stay on topic).

We never were bound by the EU over this (see my post about the MHRA). If France and Germany choose to follow EU rules about not buying medicines till the EMA has approved them that is their choice. It was never our choice. This 'row' has nothing to do with Brexit, regardless of what some mad bat in Greece or wherever says.

As an aside, I do find it astonishing how outraged some English people get when foreigners talk bollocks. And yet many of the same people are quite relaxed when Boris and chums are found out over their bare faced lies. Funny old world. I also laughed at someone's comment about foreign 'unelected politicians'. Call me naive but since Greece, Spain and Portulal defenestrated their dictatorships, all poliicians in the EU are elected. It is the commisioners who are appointed, and they are not politicians (the clue is in the name).

Anyway, good thread and, as usual, many posters are bravely fending off facts getting in the way of their firmly held beliefs and narrative

 

[WATFORD zero]

This is what Pascal Soriot has said about the contracts:

"First of all, we have different plants and they have different yields and different productivity. One of the plans with the highest yield is in the UK because it started earlier. It also had its own issues, but we solved all, it has a good productivity, but it's the UK plant because it started earlier. Anyway, we didn't commit with the EU, by the way. It's not a commitment we have to Europe: it’s a best effort, we said we are going to make our best effort. The reason why we said that is because Europe at the time wanted to be supplied more or less at the same time as the UK, even though the contract was signed three months later. So we said, “ok, we're going to do our best, we’re going to try, but we cannot commit contractually because we are three months behind UK”. We knew it was a super stretch goal and we know it's a big issue, this pandemic. But our contract is not a contractual commitment. It's a best effort. Basically we said we're going to try our best, but we can't guarantee we're going to succeed. In fact, getting there, we are a little bit delayed”.

You appear to be defending the indefensible by implicitly criticizing AsteaZeneca. This is a company producing vaccines at zero cost and working at best endeavors with all buyers to save lives. The EU seems to be taking a similar approach to your good self.

I have no doubt that AstraZeneca are doing what they can. What I am saying is that if the UK rollout of the vaccine got cut by 60% at 5 days notice, our plans would be f***ed through no fault of our own and I would expect our Government to exert pressure to try and get the numbers back up

AstraZeneca have said what they believe they were contractually obliged to and the EU have said they want to publish the contract. You know as well as I that we won't ever know what was in any of these contracts, (unless of course [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] publishes the UK 'cast iron contract' that he's party to).

As I said in my very first post, the EU signing 12 weeks after the UK was a f*** up, but this f*** up has scaled up massively due to the cut in vaccine volumes (whatever the reasons) and is an International disaster for the fight against Covid..