Does it make you racist if..................

[Goldstone Rapper]

Ok.. I should have qualified it with context...... However I think it would be difficult to not concede that they are typically used in a context whereby they are used to express hatred/intolerance/bigotry on the basis of nationality, ethnicity or racial heritage.

Oh, absolutely. In terms of language, I find it massively disrespectful when people use any word to describe another, even if not meant in a nasty way ('niggardly', 'paki shop', 'no I did not call you a f***ing black c***' - that last one authored by John Terry), without taking responsibility for how that word lands with someone else. This is especially when it can call them back to situations when they were targeted in a way to make them feel isolated, unwelcome etc because of a particular aspect of their identity.

People on NSC can argue about whether certain words are racist, whether using a racist word makes them racist forever or in just a moment, or whether it's OK to use racist words just to annoy rather than genuinely be racist. In the end, though, the best guide is to judge whether they are showing respect to the people they are using those words about.

That simple. Those celebrated titans of racial studies, Bill and Ted got it right: 'Be excellent to each other.'

 

[toostonedtocare]

The word 'niggardly' has nothing to do with the word ******. Wiki it..

'"Niggardly" (noun: "niggard") is an adjective meaning "stingy" or "miserly", perhaps related to the Old Norse verb nigla = "to fuss about small matters". It is cognate with "niggling", meaning "petty" or "unimportant", as in "the niggling details".

So maybe you should apologise to those people who have used that word and you have thought racist. (Not many I think... does anyone ever use this word?) But ... you must still say sorry.

 

[Seagull kimchi]

People classing themselves as " British Indian, British African, British Jamaican " contributes to a fractured society.

Or maybe being a country with a dubious colonial past has led us to become fractured in the way you suggest?

People can retain any part of their heritage if they choose, where's the problem for you?

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

The word 'niggardly' has nothing to do with the word ******. Wiki it..

'"Niggardly" (noun: "niggard") is an adjective meaning "stingy" or "miserly", perhaps related to the Old Norse verb nigla = "to fuss about small matters". It is cognate with "niggling", meaning "petty" or "unimportant", as in "the niggling details".

Exactly right, and see here, which I why I used it as an example. With someone that may have memories of hatefully being called '******', it would not be respectful as a friend to use the word 'niggardly' in their company, at least without checking they knew what that word means rather than what it sounds like. (At the very least, it would be a failure to communicate to use a word to try to get someone to think of stinginess and, instead, lead their mind to wander off thinking about suffering racial hatred!)

 

[toostonedtocare]

Exactly right, which I why I used it as an example. With someone that may have memories of hatefully being called '******', it would not be respectful as a friend to use the word 'niggardly' in their company, at least without checking they knew what that word means rather than what it sounds like. (At the very least, it would be a failure to communicate to use a word to try to get someone to think of stinginess and, instead, lead their mind to wander off thinking about suffering racial hatred!)

So you would expect the behaviour.....Excuse me sir... do you know what the word niggardly means? If I use it I do not want you to think I refer to the word ****** even though it may sound similar. If I use words such as niggard or niggling or even nig htclub... I just want to make sure that you know what the word means and it is nothing to do with you being a wog. Yeah....

 

[NMH]

NMH did say that but I'm not agreeing with him that it's merely down to the victim. But, at the same time, I think he's right that it's not up to the accused to completely decide. Well, yes, 'racism is not always carried out in a deliberate or conscious way' does open up a minefield of debate. However, it is an understanding of the subtler aspects of racism that has been publicly discussed and agreed by public bodies such as the Metropolitan Police for over a decade now. I agree with that understand too. Certainly, as a form of racism, it's harder to pin down in some cases, but worth dealing with because of the negative consequences.

To take an example outside of racism, by day, I've worked in many children's nurseries in Brighton and Hove. Ask any female member of staff whether they are sexist against boys. They'll say no, and I'm sure they don't deliberately set out to treat boys less equally. Yet, if you see who gets punished more harshly, who gets most affection, whose interests and strengths are valued, it's very hard to argue with the view that boys get a raw deal. Undeliberate it may be, but it's still institutionally sexist and damaging all the same. In the same way, someone may not set out to be racist, but their behaviour can lead to others being isolated, put down etc in a way that is linked to race.

Well it certainly is a 'can of worms' when it comes to perception of racism.
Several examples exist where a person can be actually INVITED to use it as an aside. I have a friend who thinks it's amusing, he hates political correctness and says that he's lived through the Enoch Powell era and can accept it....from his mates. So, some of them call him racist names that would make most blush and he laughs at and with them. I don't use any of the terms he invites or accepts, and wouldn't assume that using them is funny or 'in safe ears' so as to speak. If those expressions are overheard by others - maybe the people saying them don't care, but I would. Still, that's up to Kev - who wears a woolly hat for his rasta locks and is about as cockney-sounding as it gets. He looks the complete Jamaican.

Accidental use of racist terms could be taken into account, if someone thinks 'negro' is still acceptable for instance, and it's not been spat out in spite or derogatory generalisation then it might have been a normal use of a word just like hispanic or caucasion.

Let's not believe that Suarez (the hi-profile example of late) simply used 'negrito' as an accidental aside - that just doesn't wash, and his saying "what's said on the pitch should stay on the pitch" doesn't really help. The victim obviously knew it wasn't aimed as a term of affection, and decided it was racist, he had no doubt. Any non-racist would immediately have apologised and said that they hadn't known it was offending. If that were true.

 

[User removed 4]

Or maybe being a country with a dubious colonial past has led us to become fractured in the way you suggest?

People can retain any part of their heritage if they choose, where's the problem for you?

These people or at least their forebears also chose to come and settle here, my problem is where they see themselves first and foremost as pakistani british or nigerian british or whatever, i worked with australians who were born here of english parents and can actually remember living here , but they saw themselves as totally australian, not even with a small nod to their ancestry, "retaining heritage" as you put it,by defining yourself as "ethnic british" makes for piss poor social cohesion.

 

[User removed 4]

Exactly right, and see here, which I why I used it as an example. With someone that may have memories of hatefully being called '******', it would not be respectful as a friend to use the word 'niggardly' in their company, at least without checking they knew what that word means rather than what it sounds like. (At the very least, it would be a failure to communicate to use a word to try to get someone to think of stinginess and, instead, lead their mind to wander off thinking about suffering racial hatred!)

Oh do me a favour ,that is beyond a f***ing joke, people like you exacerbate problems.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

So you would expect the behaviour.....Excuse me sir... do you know what the word niggardly means? If I use it I do not want you to think I refer to the word ****** even though it may sound similar. If I use words such as niggard or niggling or even nig htclub... I just want to make sure that you know what the word means and it is nothing to do with you being a wog. Yeah....

The reality is that most people wouldn't usually use the word 'niggardly'. Taking an example from that Wikipedia article, when she's someone you don't know, it'd be a less than stellar behaviour to ask a black waitress to 'stop being so niggardly with the coffee'. Unless the goal really was to be linguistically righteous, and f*** anyone else along the way, you'd find a different word.

What I'm saying is that if anyone is sooo determined to use the word in a linguistically correct way, it's respectful and completely down to them to see that doesn't land in an unintended way. They may feel clumsy about doing so, but it's the price to be paid for anyone being bloody-minded about the issue.

 

[Bakero]

The reality is that most people wouldn't usually use the word 'niggardly'. Taking an example from that Wikipedia article, when she's someone you don't know, it'd be a less than stellar behaviour to ask a black waitress to 'stop being so niggardly with the coffee'. Unless the goal really was to be linguistically righteous, and f*** anyone else along the way, you'd find a different word.

I understand where you're coming from. Obviously you're not suggesting that we ban words because they sound like a word that might offend someone. However, in the case above a different word could clearly be chosen. At the very least telling a black waitress to stop being 'niggardly' would sound like a crass pun. Similar to ESPN's 'Chink in the Armor' headline, referencing Taiwanese-American Jeremy Lin's NY Knicks: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/18/espn-racist-jeremy-lin-headline-mobile-apology_n_1286277.html

The other day at work I was discussing a song with a colleague, when another colleague asked me what song we were talking about. The second colleague is black. Was it racist to tell her the song title:

 

[SK1NT]

How is the word paki racist... That's rubbish! Is the word Brit racist then

As said several times before in this thread by different people ...Paki is only ever used in a derogatory way and is a term of hate used to classify any Indian, Bangledeshi, Pakistani etc person... and is a term used to brown people.... The word Brit would not be used to all white people.. FFS

I have never heard the word Paki used as a term of endearment... just as a pure insult

Can you honestly say you have heard the word paki used in the same context as Brit?

 

[BadFish]

These people or at least their forebears also chose to come and settle here, my problem is where they see themselves first and foremost as pakistani british or nigerian british or whatever, i worked with australians who were born here of english parents and can actually remember living here , but they saw themselves as totally australian, not even with a small nod to their ancestry, "retaining heritage" as you put it,by defining yourself as "ethnic british" makes for piss poor social cohesion.

I was born in England and live in Australia i see myself as an Englishman living in Australia. My kids see themselves as Australian with English heritage. My wifes family have lived in Australia for several generations but still hold on to their Scottish and Irish roots. None of us have any problems with social cohesion. Most Australian I have met will tell you their cultural heritage. In fact in my experience the Australians who don't know their cultural heritage and see themselves as 'true blue' are the ones who struggle with social cohesion.

Sent from my HTC Vision using Tapatalk

 

[User removed 4]

I was born in England and live in Australia i see myself as an Englishman living in Australia. My kids see themselves as Australian with English heritage. My wifes family have lived in Australia for several generations but still hold on to their Scottish and Irish roots. None of us have any problems with social cohesion. Most Australian I have met will tell you their cultural heritage. In fact in my experience the Australians who don't know their cultural heritage and see themselves as 'true blue' are the ones who struggle with social cohesion.

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If I moved to Australia , I would encourage my kids to see themselves as Australian, I often thought about emigrating but am now divorced and couldn't leave my kds behind, however I will be spending some time in Singapore fairly soon, god help anyone who doest espect their culture and laws!!

 

[Bakero]

If I moved to Australia , I would encourage my kids to see themselves as Australian, I often thought about emigrating but am now divorced and couldn't leave my kds behind, however I will be spending some time in Singapore fairly soon, god help anyone who doest espect their culture and laws!!

If you moved to Singapore would you encourage your kids to see themselves as Singaporean?

 

[BadFish]

If I moved to Australia , I would encourage my kids to see themselves as Australian, I often thought about emigrating but am now divorced and couldn't leave my kds behind, however I will be spending some time in Singapore fairly soon, god help anyone who doest espect their culture and laws!!

So you wouldn't want your kids to appreciate and respect their and your heritage. To me learning to respect other cultures is the way to achieve social cohesion.

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[User removed 4]

If you moved to Singapore would you encourage your kids to see themselves as Singaporean?

if it was a permanent move of course.

 

[User removed 4]

So you wouldn't want your kids to appreciate and respect their and your heritage. To me learning to respect other cultures is the way to achieve social cohesion.

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do you really think the pakistanis in large communities in cities and mill towns all over england reall respect our cuture ?? a significant number have lived here for years and still cant speak the language, that increases sizeably if you include the wives.

 

[Bakero]

if it was a permanent move of course.

Would you encourage them to be Singapore Chinese, Singapore Indian or Singapore Malay?

 

[User removed 4]

Would you encourage them to be Singapore Chinese, Singapore Indian or Singapore Malay?

i would encourage them to adapt to the native malay cuture, but as you know this s a moot point , because i wouldnt move permanently to a country with a non western culture.

 

[Bakero]

i would encourage them to adapt to the native malay cuture.

You may have a problem there. Over of a 3rd of Singapore's population are 'foreign' workers, predominantly English speaking, not to mention the vast number of temporary workers. Of the 'local' population the majority are of Chinese descent followed by a fairly even number of citizens of Malay and Indian descent. What if people that follow the native Malay culture didn't accept your kids?

I live in Vietnam. I have Vietnamese friends but the majority of my friends are 'foreigners'. I speak terrible Vietnamese. I respect the local culture but also complain about certain aspects of it. Am I a terrible person?