Do you believe in Jesus Christ and the holy spirit?

[NMH]

It depends on your definition of God as a creative force. If you accept that the universe was formed then this creation itself and the forces it used can be taken as God or a Godhead. That's where all religion and science starts from, an attempt to explain it all. It certainly is no coincidence that earlier pagan religions or belief structures used more natural figures as their godheads as they were limited to the experiences of their immediate surroundings and their imagination. Hence Mother Nature is God and she takes on various guises depending on the environment you lived in. As human experience has expanded and the majority of us have looked more outward and have become more removed from the natural world immediately around us then the nature of religion and science has changed too into bigger and wider theories and explanations that leave the older versions seeming strange or irrelevant.

Many modern Christians, like Brovian, accept that the basis of their faith through the Bible doesn't fit in a modern world and therefore interpret it's teachings less rigidly. Likewise some other religions such as Buddhism are open in admitting that they are using metaphor as a way of gaining enlightenment. It's all about personal choice as to how you see yourself in the world and what best fits for you. That's why any religion that dictates a way of life and a belief structure seems about as unspiritual as you can get to me.

Just read this, and can't disagree (even) with you Hungry Joe!
The concept of personal choice though, seems a little unbending, whereas as somewhat over-confident children in this universe and existence, humans do strut their stuff arrogantly in-considerately, assuming that we homo-erectus are of a completed intelect, fully aware of our claim to 'highest rank' in nature.
That kids need parental guidance in society is a given, but as we well-know, parents are often...no-, usually, in need of guidance. What can give a guide to society, in which we have to have some sort of order?
If none exists, or if it is ignored, then, in the story in the Judaic old Testament - it's the Cain and Abel result.

Shouldn't some sort of guidance, other than personally chosen or societally lawed, exist for the general reference of mankind?

 

[byf]

I am pleased that you have found something that you are committed to, but I think that saying that if we were all followers of Christ we would not fear each other is a bit rich, why can't we realise that if we hurt someone else we are just hurting ourselves?, I count myself as being someone who would never knowingly hurt another human being, and I don't believe that Jesus is my saviour, I don't see that the two things are related in any way.

While we are at it, wasn't it followers of Jesus who decided that they were going to make it very uncomfortable for Muslims walking around the Holy land during the crusades... not much helloing and smiling there.

Lying,Cheating and being down-right bad people comes naturally and doing the right thing is not always easy.

I have found that following the word in the bible and generally trying to learn from what is being taught does help in most situations and calms tense situation and teaches many marvelous things that can help with your journey through life and make it so much easier.

 

[Commander]

That's not true though. Plenty of religions accept the validity of other faiths. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_pluralism

Which surely makes it even more hypocrtical? What's to stop me starting my own religion and saying all the others are OK too?

Anyone want to join?

 

[readingstockport]

At the moment you would not choose to walk through the streets of London late at night on your own. If we were all following Jesus, we would be quite happy to do that. Everyone would just say hello and smile as we walked by, we would have no fear of being mugged or worse.

Sorry but that has nothing to do with religion or not. I am an atheist and have been since I can recall. I have never mugged anyone and your implication that it is only christians who have some kind of moral framework worth adhering to is quite simply ridiculous. If all people followed the atheistic moral code which I follow anyone could walk throught the streets of london quite safely. Your christianity has nothing to do with it, in fact if you feel the need to hang your moral beliefs on a religion it says more aobut you than it does about me.

 

[bhaexpress]

That is my biggest problem with religion. Every faith are all convinced they are right, and that everyone else is wrong. It doesn't add up.

So true, every time my afore m,entioned God Botherering cousin annoys me I merely ask her how pissed off she'll be when she gets to the the Pearly Gates and the bloke that opens them is wearing a Turban.

Always gets her at it. She's a Baptist and has scant regard for other Christian sects and considers any other religion to be just plain wrong. That's the attitude I have found with most religions.

 

[magoo]

Lying,Cheating and being down-right bad people comes naturally and doing the right thing is not always easy.

I have found that following the word in the bible and generally trying to learn from what is being taught does help in most situations and calms tense situation and teaches many marvelous things that can help with your journey through life and make it so much easier.

You don't need the bible to teach you how to be a 'good' person. I can do this completely off my own back. It's called being an intelligent person. Sorry i don't mean to sound sarcastic.

 

[readingstockport]

Lying,Cheating and being down-right bad people comes naturally and doing the right thing is not always easy.

I have found that following the word in the bible and generally trying to learn from what is being taught does help in most situations and calms tense situation and teaches many marvelous things that can help with your journey through life and make it so much easier.

Following the word in the Tao Te Ching leads to the same conclusion. So which is correct, the bible or the tao te ching? Or are they both simply philosophical works which describe an ideal way of living and have no religious significance at all.

 

[pasty]

Option A for me although it's very much a personal thing and I'm not one of those happy-clappy, arm-waving, ever-so-slightly-weird, born-again, 'Jesus loves you!' types. If you think it's all a load of crap that's fine by me, you certainly won't find me on your doorstep shoving a bible in your face.

I was wondering how to put across my feelings, but you have done it perfectly for me. I believe, but it is a personal view which I keep to myself, and you certainly won't find me attempting to foist my beliefs on others.

 

[NMH]

Interestingly I know several people who have experienced (and still do so on an ongoing basis) satori or enlightenment of the zennish kind. Their description of the experience is exactly the same as the descriptions that I have heard from some 'born again' religious people of all faiths.

Leads me to the conclusion that either god exists and allow non-religious people to experience the same things as those who worship him/her/it, which strikes me as silly else why all the stuff about having to worship to gain salvation.

OR

god does not exist and the experience of 'religion' is a self-actualising belief process/experience that anyone and everyone can experience without the need for belief in imaginary deities.

What about the concept that we are all born with a 'god' inside, the staff of our creation, the exactitude of our being, that from and of which, instinct is?

The straying from the instinctual centre, the axis of our being, a centre that is the foundation upon which is then built our individual character, is therefore the beginning of unnatural behaviour and of what is deemed 'sin'.

 

[byf]

I was wondering how to put across my feelings, but you have done it perfectly for me. I believe, but it is a personal view which I keep to myself, and you certainly won't find me attempting to foist my beliefs on others.

Thats on the money!

 

[Withdean and I]

I am pleased that you have found something that you are committed to, but I think that saying that if we were all followers of Christ we would not fear each other is a bit rich, why can't we realise that if we hurt someone else we are just hurting ourselves?, I count myself as being someone who would never knowingly hurt another human being, and I don't believe that Jesus is my saviour, I don't see that the two things are related in any way.

While we are at it, wasn't it followers of Jesus who decided that they were going to make it very uncomfortable for Muslims walking around the Holy land during the crusades... not much helloing and smiling there.

Thank you Bevendean.

I am only saying that "IF" and it's a very very big "IF", we all followed what Jesus taught, to a tee, then we would all "Love our neighbours as ourselves". Therefore in theory, if we all lived that command out, then we would indeed not fear each other.

The unfortunate reality is though, that because we are all hopeless sinners, who, no matter how hard we try, keep on falling short of what God asks of us, we would indeed probably still have fear in some areas of society.

Further, I am of course not saying that it's only people who believe in Jesus who don't go around hurting other people. Before I became a Christian I also would never hurt anyone. I haven't really changed as far as that goes. But I am changing through following Jesus. Every decision I make and every word I speak I now try my hardest to make sure that it meets Jesus's way. And because I'm still a hopeless sinner I still fail, frequently.

Also re the Crusaders, you are right, a very good point. Much has been done in the name of Christianity that actually I don't think really was anything like what Jesus would have wanted.
That is the trouble with man, we are always thinking we know best when we don't. Jesus certainly would not have allowed the crusades to take place. Therefore the people who purported to do it in his name were wrong by a long way.

Hope this answers your points.

 

[Hungry Joe]

Just read this, and can't disagree (even) with you Hungry Joe!
The concept of personal choice though, seems a little unbending, whereas as somewhat over-confident children in this universe and existence, humans do strut their stuff arrogantly in-considerately, assuming that we homo-erectus are of a completed intelect, fully aware of our claim to 'highest rank' in nature.
That kids need parental guidance in society is a given, but as we well-know, parents are often...no-, usually, in need of guidance. What can give a guide to society, in which we have to have some sort of order?
If none exists, or if it is ignored, then, in the story in the Judaic old Testament - it's the Cain and Abel result.

Shouldn't some sort of guidance, other than personally chosen or societally lawed, exist for the general reference of mankind?

In a nutshell, yes. Guidance is very important and as long as it goes along with the general concept of what is considered 'good' in humanity, concepts that are widely held across all societies and boundaries (in a very basic sense 'be nice to and respect each other') then whatever form it takes is positive. It's when indoctrination is disguised as guidance or that guidance seeks to denegrate another way of living just because it is different or outside your own that it all gets f***ed up. This is where the two branches or religion are often at odds; as a basis their guidance may be well meaning but their insistence that only their own version of creation is the true one and you must believe and follow all that comes from that belief or be damned contradicts it's own morality.

 

[NMH]

Lying,Cheating and being down-right bad people comes naturally and doing the right thing is not always easy.

I have found that following the word in the bible and generally trying to learn from what is being taught does help in most situations and calms tense situation and teaches many marvelous things that can help with your journey through life and make it so much easier.

Great that it works for you.

Lying cheating and being bad comes naturally - does this reflect back upon the perfection of our creation meaning that our ultimate nature, and (to the thread title) the nature of Jesus Christ the man, was to be GOOD and of God - and that man will stray from that true nature?
The apple from the serpent in Genesis, was the original turning away from what God had deemed, required and warned. Thus, the original sin was to desire more than what was already perfect, and consume "fruit from the tree of knowledge" (i don't quite get that bit). It became man's 'nature' only because he strayed from the first created natural course of behaviour, and wanted to try something that was forbidden.

Jesus, the character in a book or the person (depending on what you believe) represented the ultimate guide from God, his "only son", heavenly spirit given earthly being for the teaching and guidance of man. He was trying to show that it was NOT actually the nature of perfect man to lie cheat and act badly.

 

[Tony Meolas Loan Spell]

Blimey we haven't had one of these threads in a while. Option A for me although it's very much a personal thing and I'm not one of those happy-clappy, arm-waving, ever-so-slightly-weird, born-again, 'Jesus loves you!' types. If you think it's all a load of crap that's fine by me, you certainly won't find me on your doorstep shoving a bible in your face.

Yep same here.

 

[Tony Meolas Loan Spell]

"If the Bible has taught us anything—which it hasn't—it's that girls should stick to girl's sports like hot oil wrestling, foxy boxing and such and such." - Homer J Simpson

And everyone is a sinner - except this guy!

 

[Barrel of Fun]

It depends on your definition of God as a creative force………It's all about personal choice as to how you see yourself in the world and what best fits for you. That's why any religion that dictates a way of life and a belief structure seems about as unspiritual as you can get to me.

I agree with what you are saying, but I still feel that there is some deep longing to have some meaning to our life and a godlike being fits the bill. I find the word enlightenment to be rather ambiguous – Am I yet to be enlightened as I do not deem myself to be a Christian?

However, for the last bit, you suggest that there's no proof that God exists or created the world - but then you have to have a pre-determined fixed notion of who and what God actually is - a bit I find questionable.

Sorry, I should have highlighted that the God I have been ‘supplied with’ is that of a deity who created the world and is a ‘being’ with an omniscient and omnipotent capacity.

I have always liked a Hindi notion that I was told at school, by a rather rebellious teacher (as it was a school founded with a deep connection to the Church of England). It was something along the lines of….”Three blind men are asked what a Elephant looks like. One feels his tail and says it is long and thin, one feels his leg etc….” Many religions are part of a bigger picture….


I suspect it also has a lot to do with persons you have met. I have come across many strong Christians with ideals that God has a plan and your life is all about this plan, which I found to be laughable, in all honesty.


I didn't really answer the first question I belive that Jesus existed, but I do not believe in him. In a simplistic view, I believe that he captured the imagination of the people and he became a symbol of hope. An early day John Lennon, if you like.

I don’t think I am making a huge amount of sense, as I am rushing this!

 

[smudge]

My eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord,
He plays for Brighton & Hove Albion & his name is Peter Ward.

 

[magoo]

My eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord,
He plays for Brighton & Hove Albion & his name is Peter Ward.

AMEN BROTHER!

 

[tinx]

My eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord,
He plays for Brighton & Hove Albion & his name is Peter Ward.

Thats the closest thing to religion that I follow the ALbion is my religion.

 

[jonny.rainbow]

The defect in our frontal lobe that allows us to perceive our own death forces us to question our existence to maintain our own sanity.

Religion holds no answers.

Science holds no answers either, just raises more questions.