Do you believe in Jesus Christ and the holy spirit?

[Hungry Joe]

I agree with what you are saying, but I still feel that there is some deep longing to have some meaning to our life and a godlike being fits the bill. I find the word enlightenment to be rather ambiguous – Am I yet to be enlightened as I do not deem myself to be a Christian?

Of course not, that would suggest that you can only seek or find enlightenment through Christianity which is absurd. I too have a longing to find a deeper meaning to life but I also countenance the idea that maybe there isn't one. Maybe it is just birth, school, work, death and back to fertilise the earth. Maybe that is the beauty of it all, an ongoing cycle of life with no control other than the forces of nature. In some ways that is as comforting as anything else I've come across. Seeking enlightenment may herald that as the ultimate answer, I don't know, I'm a long way off it!

The Eastern religions appeal more to me in that way as they concentrate on personal meditation and deep thought that gives the mind up to the collective conciousness, lets go of the ego and just 'is'. Can sound a load of hippy bullshit but anyone who has succeeded in getting near that state of mind can tell you it as quite an experience and if nothing else is very good for the physical mind and body. Faith, prayer, meditation, whatever you like to call it has been proven in studies to lower blood pressure, heart rate and release chemicals that are good for the body and mind. If you believe in a collective conciousness then it also follows that this process can lead to others feeling the benefits of your positive thought, as has been suggested in studies where people suffering from illness can recover quicker if other people are 'praying' for them or just thinking positively for them, 'remote healing' as it's called.

That is the Godhead for me. The sense that we are individual but connected deeply to humanity and nature in general in ways we can never unerstand fully but ignore at our peril.

 

[Withdean and I]

Sorry but that has nothing to do with religion or not. I am an atheist and have been since I can recall. I have never mugged anyone and your implication that it is only christians who have some kind of moral framework worth adhering to is quite simply ridiculous. If all people followed the atheistic moral code which I follow anyone could walk throught the streets of london quite safely. Your christianity has nothing to do with it, in fact if you feel the need to hang your moral beliefs on a religion it says more aobut you than it does about me.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I am not saying that to be a good person you have to follow Jesus, of course I am not saying that. I considered myself a good person before I decided to become a Christian.

All I was saying was simply that if everyone followed Jesus teaching to a tee then then everyone should, in theory, love each other.

Sure, you could have an atheistic, moral code. Would that be like the 'law' that our pretty much secular society chooses to ignore these days?

 

[¡Cereal Killer!]

It's all a load of old mans BOLLOCKS!

 

[readingstockport]

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I am not saying that to be a good person you have to follow Jesus, of course I am not saying that. I considered myself a good person before I decided to become a Christian.

All I was saying was simply that if everyone followed Jesus teaching to a tee then then everyone should, in theory, love each other.

Sure, you could have an atheistic, moral code. Would that be like the 'law' that our pretty much secular society chooses to ignore these days?

Sorry if I misunderstood. What you seemd to imply in your original post was that if we all followed christian teachings then we would all live moral lives and be safe in the streets. By extension you implied the reason that we are 'unsafe' is that we do not follow christian teachings and their morality.

I simply pointed out that your logic and reasoning is flawed, as is all religion, in assuming that it is your answer that is the right one.

I am pleased for you that you have faith, I am pleased for you that you follow a moral code. I need no god or invented deity to do the same. I do it because it is the right thing to do.

Now, a question for you?

I do not believe in god, I do not believe in any regligion. We are all there is. We are born, we live, we die. End of. I live a good live, I don't steal, I don't commit adultery, I don't murder and I don't worship craven idols. What is my eventual fate on my death according to your god and your religion?

If god exists what is my fate on my death.

 

[readingstockport]

What about the concept that we are all born with a 'god' inside, the staff of our creation, the exactitude of our being, that from and of which, instinct is?

The straying from the instinctual centre, the axis of our being, a centre that is the foundation upon which is then built our individual character, is therefore the beginning of unnatural behaviour and of what is deemed 'sin'.

There is no god. There is only a universal connectivity in which we are all one and the same thing. We are all part of the whole. If you want to get metaphysical then go into the realm of quantum physics in which the observer influences the event and ask yourself what influenced the big bang. There is no separation between us and all that is and all that ever will be.

god didn't do it though. The universe did.

We are god and god is us for we are the death of a star and the death of us is life for all that follows.

edit - just re-read that and it approaches religious teachings doesn't it? It's not though. There is no need for a faith in any god to live forever, there is only the need for a fundamental understanding that you always have and always will. Just not with the conciousness you regard as your identity.

 

[NMH]

Of course not, that would suggest that you can only seek or find enlightenment through Christianity which is absurd. I too have a longing to find a deeper meaning to life but I also countenance the idea that maybe there isn't one. Maybe it is just birth, school, work, death and back to fertilise the earth. Maybe that is the beauty of it all, an ongoing cycle of life with no control other than the forces of nature. In some ways that is as comforting as anything else I've come across. Seeking enlightenment may herald that as the ultimate answer, I don't know, I'm a long way off it!

The Eastern religions appeal more to me in that way as they concentrate on personal meditation and deep thought that gives the mind up to the collective conciousness, lets go of the ego and just 'is'. Can sound a load of hippy bullshit but anyone who has succeeded in getting near that state of mind can tell you it as quite an experience and if nothing else is very good for the physical mind and body. Faith, prayer, meditation, whatever you like to call it has been proven in studies to lower blood pressure, heart rate and release chemicals that are good for the body and mind. If you believe in a collective conciousness then it also follows that this process can lead to others feeling the benefits of your positive thought, as has been suggested in studies where people suffering from illness can recover quicker if other people are 'praying' for them or just thinking positively for them, 'remote healing' as it's called.

That is the Godhead for me. The sense that we are individual but connected deeply to humanity and nature in general in ways we can never unerstand fully but ignore at our peril.

Christianity is probably a little overbearing in the claim, that it is such a brilliant story that it is therefore the ONLY way to find enlightenment, peace and forgiveness before 'God' (whatever you perceive him/it to be)

The central 'staff' of being, wherein lies our perfect nature, is sought by many Eastern religions through meditation, chanting, and other inner spiritual reflections and harmonies. Active spirituality without the aid of text, of doctrine, often lies at the core of their quest.

As for the healing power of prayer, there have been studies that revealed some basis for belief in this. The American Indians often had an active, ordained person for the function!
The healing power of someone enthusiastically dancing, chanting, singing and praying over the sick subject, must surely activate some enthusiasm within that sick person.

In blues music, the concept of 'the healer' is credited to music and the musician. I certainly believe in the healing power of music, where it affects the spirit and the heart of the sick. If anything can assist in making the sick turn the vital corner that may bring them back to health, then it must be creditable. When I am sick, I do play the music that I love. That urge and flow of heartfelt chemicals is said to move mountains, and I must say, I have responded to music when sick.

Prayers can be a reminder that you have worth to someone, or an acknowledgement that there is something deeper than physical medicine that can be capable of swinging the course of your health in your favour, when it could otherwise go either way. Faith in something bigger? ....or faith in something always there within each of us?

Prayer exhibits faith and love, mountain movers apparently. That's heap powerful medicine. "How"!

 

[Zesh Rehman]

i use to be on the fence but im slowly slipping of in the direction of not believing, why would he let so many bad things happen !

 

[lost in london]

I would love to think that there is a God there who was looking after us all, but I am too rational to actually believe there is one. Being brought up a catholic and an altar server for 10 years has instilled in me a pretty strong sense of right or wrong, but I always wonder if I would have been the same kind of person without going to church every sunday all those years.

I put no in the vote, but I'm always keeping my eyes open for some sign that he definitely exists. I guess I didn't gat named Thomas without reason!

And more generally, has anyone else noticed that converts to religion tend to be the most forthright / ardent believers of the religion? An unusually large proportion of the fundamentalist muslims who you see in the press getting angry about this or that appear to be converts.

 

[London Irish]

Although an athiest, I do regard myself as a "cultural Catholic" and remain very impressed by a lot of the community work the church does.

British Christians tend to be very decent collective of people who will generally use their influence in a constructive, socially progressive and non-judgemental manner (exceptions to the rule obviously).

But you only have to look at American Christianity to see just how bad things can go wrong on that score. I am grateful for British Christians when I look at that hideous lot.

 

[Lokki 7]

All I was saying was simply that if everyone followed Jesus teaching to a tee then then everyone should, in theory, love each other.

Should we then also follow the whole of the bible "to a tee?" In other words do we reject the theory of evolution? Do we reject the idea that the earth is millions of years old? Do we condemn homo-sexuals? Do we stone people to death for certain crimes? Do we stop eating shellfish? You tell me... Or do you just pick and choose the bits that suit you?

 

[Rambo]

I do like threads like this.

Do you think NSC can solve the meaning of life? would be great wouldnt it!!

I think ReadingStockport is pretty spot on with his views.

I have always gone on the belief that if there wasnt a God there would be a necessity to invent one, and that come 'the' or your day of reckoning you will probably be 'praying' to someone or something.

In the meantime, most of us have an inbulit morality and understanding of what is right and wrong, and the more people that harbor on the right side the better it is for all of us.

Live long and prosper o great ones.

 

[readingstockport]

Although an athiest, I do regard myself as a "cultural Catholic" and remain very impressed by a lot of the community work the church does.

British Christians tend to be very decent collective of people who will generally use their influence in a constructive, socially progressive and non-judgemental manner (exceptions to the rule obviously).

But you only have to look at American Christianity to see just how bad things can go wrong on that score. I am grateful for British Christians when I look at that hideous lot.

can only blame the devil for so long before you surely have to stand up and say ok its actually us that do it and nothing else is influencing us.


Stop passing the buck, take responsilbility for your own actions for once.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

For something they don't believe in, atheists do mention god alot.

 

[Rambo]

can only blame the devil for so long before you surely have to stand up and say ok its actually us that do it and nothing else is influencing us.


Stop passing the buck, take responsilbility for your own actions for once.

I totally agree with this, it is the 'community' that should always take responsibilty for itself.

You cannot keep blaming 'the government', the system, soceity, the devil etc etc. People have to tak responsibility for themselves and those in there community. it is too easy to shirk responsibility and far harder to deal with propblems and issues.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

We are all one.
We are all part of a God who is experiencing himself subjectively.
There is no death.
There is no one to judge us except ourselves.

How do you like them apples?

If people want to believe that Jesus or Mohammed or Buddah or uncle Tom Cobley can point them towards God better than their own small voice inside, which IS God speaking directly to them...
thats up to them.

Doesnt really matter in the end.

 

[Man of Harveys]

For something they don't believe in, atheists do mention god alot.

Quite right, we do. And quite right too, all the time that simple-minded folk shrug their shoulders when they don't understand something and say "ah, well, no reason for that so it must be that god thing again". This concept of god filled a vacuum of understanding for centuries and once that vacuum was allowed to be filled by science, there was no need for a god.

 

[Herne Hill Seagull]

At the moment you would not choose to walk through the streets of London late at night on your own. If we were all following Jesus, we would be quite happy to do that. Everyone would just say hello and smile as we walked by, we would have no fear of being mugged or worse.

You could walk past me day or night, with me being drunk or sober, in a quiet street or a busy street, and be in no danger of any kind whatsoever from me, Withdean, and I'm as 'committed' an atheist (I'm not sure that's the right word!) that you'll find anywhere.

I don't need a religion to set a moral code - I already know it's wrong to mug people and simply don't do it. For me, if you need a fear of eternal damnation to stop you from being a bad person (and I'm not for a second suggesting this is true of you, or most religious people) then there's a problem already.

For me, man invented religion because so many people can't accept or even comprehend their own smallness, their own insignificance, and most importantly, their own mortality. I see religion as emotional crutches on which people can lean to overcome these feelings - if they get strength from it, succour from their problems, then I'm happy for them. Atheists have the same problems as everybody else but deal with them differently.

I'm perfectly happy to respect people's right to a religious belief, but I utterly condemn attempts at indoctrination of others (particularly children) and attempts to force a whole population to live according to the rules of a religious faith, whether they share it or not, (or to restrict them from practising their own faith if it differs from the majority), which has happened in this country and continues to happen in various parts of the world. Take that away and people would have to find something else to fight about.

Which, of course, they would.

 

[Man of Harveys]

What HH said, bloody good post.

So does my genuine fondness for some of the cultural outpourings of religion - great buildings, works of art, music etc make me a raging hypocrite?

 

[readingstockport]

I was in Exeter the other day for the FA cup prelim with AFCW and I have to say the cathedral there is absoultely superb. Wonderful architecture and decoration.

Incidentally, if god is love does that mean whenever I love something I am god?

Or could it be, as the 'zennists' have been teaching for thousands of years, that love is in fact god?

 

[NMH]

There is no god. There is only a universal connectivity in which we are all one and the same thing. We are all part of the whole. If you want to get metaphysical then go into the realm of quantum physics in which the observer influences the event and ask yourself what influenced the big bang. There is no separation between us and all that is and all that ever will be.

god didn't do it though. The universe did.

We are god and god is us for we are the death of a star and the death of us is life for all that follows.

edit - just re-read that and it approaches religious teachings doesn't it? It's not though. There is no need for a faith in any god to live forever, there is only the need for a fundamental understanding that you always have and always will. Just not with the conciousness you regard as your identity.

That might explain life, but not the meaning of life, and why we might even want to consider it! As an equation, it might also be argued by the spiritual version that could say "I think therefore I am, I am therefore God is"

In life, there are so many versions of life. Why the octopus? Why the butterfly? Why birth, eggs, sperm, species, colour, light?
Why 11degrees of tilt on Earth's axis, why the one moon, the ionesphere, the clouds, the gravitational pull and air-pressure, the gaseous balance and the comparitive steadfastness of earth's crust? Why atoms, why electrons?
Why food chain, why fire, heat, moisture, ice, this distance from the sun? Why trees, breathing plants?
Without correctness in the above, we cease to exist, we cease to have the delicate balance that maintains our being here to consider the why's and wherefores.

Perspective presides, and perhaps willingness to either accept information or reject it, or to give it our consideration in the first place.

I heard it said, and I am not sure how true it is, that the people that work closely on discovering the secrets held within genetics and the human genome, had turned from being atheist scientists, to acceptance of God. Not that it proves or disproves anything or even that we should respect their revised belief as a correct one, but it is interesting that they now hold this belief.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2220484,00.html