Congestion charge in Brighton & Hove

[West Hoathly Seagull]

The trouble with trams is they cost a fortune to deliver. Politicians love them because they are seen as shiny, new and innovative AND ARE NOT BUSES. Trouble is, buses can carry just as many punters, if not more, are a damn site more flexible in there routing and cost a massive amount less.

Rapid Transit is great, but it does not have to be trams. There are dozens of examples worldwide of bus rapid transit, delivered a a fraction of the cost of a Croydon Tramlink or similar.

I think you will find politicians don't particularly like trams. The Government refused Leeds and Liverpool the right to build schemes. Liverpool are now trying again; Leeds has opted for trolleybuses. I still think my point about buses being seen as a lower class form of transport is valid. I don't agree with it; as I have said above, I happily use the bus when in London - the 507 from Victoria was a godsend when I was ill earlier in the year and could hardly walk, but the figures (I don't have them but look in railway and light rail magazines) bear my point out. Of course trams are probably not suitable in Brighton, unless you ban cars (and delivery vans, which would be far more difficult) from large parts of the centre. I can think of only two roads they could possibly share with cars - the seafront and the Steine. However, it must now seem an error to have got rid of Brighton's trams. Sydney is desperately trying to put back as many as possible, having got rid of nearly all of its - how many people know that the Opera House was built on an old tram depot? It has a very extensive bus service, but most locals drive, whereas Melbourne, which has kept its trams, sees far higher public transport use in the centre.

Because of the limited capacity at Withdean, the service needed subsidy. Get a decent sized car park (or three) and P&R will have the chance to take off. Every car parked at a park and ride site is one less vehicle cluttering up the city centre streets.

I think it has to be park and ride to stop visitors driving in. What you have to remember is that not everyone visiting is going to be coming in on a direct public transport route. Okay, you have the 17 to Henfield and Horsham, and the 29 to Lewes and Tunbridge Wells, but say you want to go from Groombridge to Brighton - far less easy. I generally only go to Withdean and generally do not go into the middle of Brighton that often. Quite honestly it is too much hassle. I prefer to go by train, but that means paying at least £6 to park in Haywards Heath, or attempting to find somewhere near Three Bridges - not easy once the commuters have taken all the spaces. A convenient park and ride and reasonable bus fare might make the difference. I am presuming that HB and B does not want to pay to subsidise bus services for visitors. Fine - bring in a scheme that is profitable. That would mean restrictions on driving in to central Brighton. It is now practically impossible to drive into the centre of Oxford, but the place is always bursting with people.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

I am presuming that HB and B does not want to pay to subsidise bus services for visitors. Fine - bring in a scheme that is profitable. That would mean restrictions on driving in to central Brighton. It is now practically impossible to drive into the centre of Oxford, but the place is always bursting with people.

One of the interesting things about park and ride schemes is that they are most successful in bustling cities with a thriving tourist trade - York, Oxford, Durham, for example.

The argument that p&r would "kill Brighton's economy" is nonsense being put around by people who are dogmatic opponents of any measure that restricts motoring.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

What you have to remember is that not everyone visiting is going to be coming in on a direct public transport route. Okay, you have the 17 to Henfield and Horsham, and the 29 to Lewes and Tunbridge Wells, but say you want to go from Groombridge to Brighton - far less easy.

Drive the 5 miles from Groombridge to Crowborough, park free and catch the half-hourly 29. It's only £3 for a Super-Saver (return) ticket if you buy it through the bus company's website.

Or you could probably save a bit of time by driving to Uckfield, park free there, and catch the same bus at the same fare.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

i was here when the manchester thing happened, i found it all quite sad and disheartening.

they way i saw it, there was no idea of municipal co-operation. manchester is lots of little towns all joined together and they are snobby about public transport.

when faced with being taxed for a luxury (which i fully support being a city centre resident / occasional public transport user) they ran a mile. the city voted about 90% against. now they moan about public transport, or traffic jams.

basically, they care about their doorstep, but not the rest of the city.

would people in portslade give a monkeys about the plight of those who live at the seven dials? probably not.

london had the right idea by introuducing it without consultation ... democracy sucks in these situations, where people will have to fish into their own pockets for the long term benefit of everyone in their city.

there's also something dodgy about B&H buses having the monopoly - the lack of competition doesn't bode well for an affordable and effective PT system to suit Brighton and Hove.

Yeah because competition has improved public transport markedly in the UK since it was introduced during the 80's!

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Yeah because competition has improved public transport markedly in the UK since it was introduced during the 80's!

Living in East Sussex, one thing that is very noticeable about bus services in recent years is that since Brighton & Hove Buses established a monopoly on the rural routes into Brighton, the service has got much better and the fares have come down. A £3 day return fare from Crowborough to Brighton (with the added bonus of free travel on the whole of the Brighton network, when you get there) is cheaper today than it was over 20 years ago when bus deregulation first happened and there were three companies "in competition" on the route.

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

Living in East Sussex, one thing that is very noticeable about bus services in recent years is that since Brighton & Hove Buses established a monopoly on the rural routes into Brighton, the service has got much better and the fares have come down. A £3 day return fare from Crowborough to Brighton (with the added bonus of free travel on the whole of the Brighton network, when you get there) is cheaper today than it was over 20 years ago when bus deregulation first happened and there were three companies "in competition" on the route.

Exactly M'Lord! I would love to see the return of nationalised and if necessary subsidised bus routes across the whole of the country, with one bus company in each area. With tickets being transferable across each area to allow area to area travelling, giving us a joined up bus network that might actually work.

 

[Brovion]

There is absolutely no case whatsoever for exempting residents of Brighton and Hove from a congestion charge in the city centre. Most of the traffic congestion is caused by residents of the city, quite a lot of whom travel in and out on a daily basis.

They are the people who need to switch to public transport alternatives. And before anyone starts whinging that "it costs £3.60 to travel in on a bus", go look at the price of bus travel for people who have made a genuine commitment to use buses for most of their trips around the conurbation.

The price of one month's unlimited travel on B&H buses (including journeys as far afield as Tunbridge Wells and Eastbourne) is £53. That's about £1.75 a day.

Totally agree with your first paragraph. The rest of your post is, I'm sorry to say. total bollocks. How can you POSSIBLY justify £14.40 for four people to go from Fiveways to Churchill Square and back? We don't go into Brighton town centre regularly (so we don't want a monthly ticket) and we don't plan in advance. And have you ever BEEN on a bus from Brighton to Tunbridge Wells? I have. The return fare was only about £4 (which strange to say pissed me off as I realised how much of a rip-off the city centre fares were), and it's not an experiece I will be repeating. It's an incredibly frustrating journey as the bus keeps detouriung rather than going straight, and bus seats are NOT designed for long journeys. I've got a dodgy back and it was killing me when I got off.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Totally agree with your first paragraph. The rest of your post is, I'm sorry to say. total bollocks. How can you POSSIBLY justify £14.40 for four people to go from Fiveways to Churchill Square and back? We don't go into Brighton town centre regularly (so we don't want a monthly ticket) and we don't plan in advance. And have you ever BEEN on a bus from Brighton to Tunbridge Wells? I have. The return fare was only about £4 (which strange to say pissed me off as I realised how much of a rip-off the city centre fares were), and it's not an experiece I will be repeating. It's an incredibly frustrating journey as the bus keeps detouriung rather than going straight, and bus seats are NOT designed for long journeys. I've got a dodgy back and it was killing me when I got off.

Most groups of four people travelling together from Five Ways to Churchill Square and back will be families (say 2 adults and 2 young people). The young people will have BusID passes, surely? In which case, it won't cost £14.40 for the journey. Accompanied young people will only be charged 20p per journey, bringing the total cost down to £8.00.

The Tunbridge Wells bus I travelled on yesterday evening was quite comfortable - but I guess that's a matter of personal interpretation of what comfort is.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Most groups of four people travelling together from Five Ways to Churchill Square and back will be families (say 2 adults and 2 young people). The young people will have BusID passes, surely? In which case, it won't cost £14.40 for the journey. Accompanied young people will only be charged 20p per journey, bringing the total cost down to £8.00.

The Tunbridge Wells bus I travelled on yesterday evening was quite comfortable - but I guess that's a matter of personal interpretation of what comfort is.

I'm a huge proponent of public transport but even I have to admit Brighton Buses are a f***ing rip off. And as someone pointed out it is cheaper to get a cab if there are 3 or more of you.

The trains are a f***ing rip off and well come to think of it. It cost me 51 pounds to go to Harlow yesterday for an Xmas lunch. I could have probably done that cheaper in a taxi as well.

 

[Brovion]

Most groups of four people travelling together from Five Ways to Churchill Square and back will be families (say 2 adults and 2 young people). The young people will have BusID passes, surely? In which case, it won't cost £14.40 for the journey. Accompanied young people will only be charged 20p per journey, bringing the total cost down to £8.00.

The Tunbridge Wells bus I travelled on yesterday evening was quite comfortable - but I guess that's a matter of personal interpretation of what comfort is.

Most but not all (it's the same problem I have buying tickets for the Albion) and even £8 for a family of four I would say is about double what it should be - that is if you're serious about buses being an alternative to cars.

And how do you justify the fact that for an adult it's £3.60 return from Fiveways to Churchill Square but £4.40 return (I think it was) from Brighton to Tunbridge Wells?

EDIT: And my interpretation of comfort is something that doesn't leave me bent double in pain.

 

[sten_super]

The key to any P&R scheme is pricing. The entry to the city centre needs to be prohibitively expensive (and they'd had to get rid of some of the existing car parking, to make it more difficult to park in the centre), and the bus needs to be suitably cheap.

For example;
Oxford
oxford bus company - Pear Tree
£2.50/£2.20 return peak/off-peak
£4.50/£4 for 2 people return peak/off-peak
Children travel free, car parking is free

York
Bus services in York | Park Ride
£2.30 return
Children travel free, car parking is free

Price it sensibly and people will use it.

 

[Deleted User X18H]

Because Ms Mears and Mr Theobald wanted to save money.

Morning, but they must have had some justification in withdrawing it. I.E it wasn't being utilized.

 

[Gwylan]

Exactly M'Lord! I would love to see the return of nationalised and if necessary subsidised bus routes across the whole of the country, with one bus company in each area. With tickets being transferable across each area to allow area to area travelling, giving us a joined up bus network that might actually work.

We don't go into Brighton town centre regularly (so we don't want a monthly ticket) and we don't plan in advance. And have you ever BEEN on a bus from Brighton to Tunbridge Wells? I have. The return fare was only about £4 (which strange to say pissed me off as I realised how much of a rip-off the city centre fares were), and it's not an experiece I will be repeating. It's an incredibly frustrating journey as the bus keeps detouriung rather than going straight, and bus seats are NOT designed for long journeys. I've got a dodgy back and it was killing me when I got off.

These are both good points. I'm not convinced that congestion charge is the answer to Brighton's problems but I do know that you can't tackle the town centre congestion without tackling three things: introducing park and ride, proper (and cheaper) public transport and reduction of parking in town.

SSS and Brovion point out some of the problems: it's absurd that there are so many bus companies serving a small part of the country, with no links between them. So, the 28/29 bus is forced to serve a variety of villages rather than speed between Lewes -Crowborough - Tunbridge Wells. There are buses that serve the likes of Ringmer and Uckfield but they're served by different bus companies.

Last year, we wanted to go Brooklands Park in Lancing but, on investigation, it would have cost more than £20 for two adults and two kids (using Bus ID) on a bus as it involved two bus companies - that's just crazy for a journey of about 10 or 11 miles. Or closer to home, you can't interchange B&H buses and Big Lemon tickets. Total bollocks.

We really need to look at a more integrated system - why can't we have a Sussex-wide card that covers all buses and trains in the area? Why can't we have more express buses between towns?

And why does everything have to go into Brighton? The whole network is designed around getting buses into Brighton along Lewes and London Roads and clogging up Churchill Square - why not use Old Shoreham Road, Ditchling Road, Dyke Road etc more? I know the issue is that it's not economic to run some of these buses which is why we need to restrict access to B&H centre more.

As a matter of interest, does anyone know who owns the land on which Brighton car parks are built - some of those would make a fortune if they could be developed for private housing; enabling a reduction in parking and increasing the housing stock at the same time.

 

[The Large One]

These are both good points. I'm not convinced that congestion charge is the answer to Brighton's problems but I do know that you can't tackle the town centre congestion without tackling three things: introducing park and ride, proper (and cheaper) public transport and reduction of parking in town.

We really need to look at a more integrated system - why can't we have a Sussex-wide card that covers all buses and trains in the area? Why can't we have more express buses between towns?

And why does everything have to go into Brighton? The whole network is designed around getting buses into Brighton along Lewes and London Roads and clogging up Churchill Square - why not use Old Shoreham Road, Ditchling Road, Dyke Road etc more? I know the issue is that it's not economic to run some of these buses which is why we need to restrict access to B&H centre more.

Fair points all.

To be fair, there are three bus services that use Ditchling Road, two of which travel its entire built up length.

I understand the bus company's policy about Old Steine and Churchill Square being a hub for most bus routes to go through, but the 'cross-town' routes are horribly under-served. Suppose you wanted to go from, say, Fiveways to the RSCH. Two buses, and best part of 45 minutes to get there.

However, it's a chicken-and-egg scenario. You're not going to get the bus service until you get the passenger need, and there's a good chance you're not going to get the passenger need until you get the bus service.

 

[Gwylan]

However, it's a chicken-and-egg scenario. You're not going to get the bus service until you get the passenger need, and there's a good chance you're not going to get the passenger need until you get the bus service.

And not going to get the passengers until the private car option is reduced.

You also make a good point about the RSCH - considering it's the main hospital for a city, it's spectacularly ill-served by public transport with no direct bus from the population hubs of London or Lewes Rds (there is one from Lewes Rd but it's irregular and doesn't run at all at weekends)

 

[wellquickwoody]

This 'congestion charge' is suddenly being proposed by a group of minority political parties who have effectively hijacked our local political process. All legal and above board I know. But the idea will effectively be a Green Party crusade. They morally should hold a referendum, if they refuse this and then implement the plan, in whatever guise, they will have done local democracy an enormous disservice. I, and I believe many others, would then hold our local councillors in the same contempt that our MP's currently find themselves in.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Last year, we wanted to go Brooklands Park in Lancing but, on investigation, it would have cost more than £20 for two adults and two kids (using Bus ID) on a bus as it involved two bus companies - that's just crazy for a journey of about 10 or 11 miles. Or closer to home, you can't interchange B&H buses and Big Lemon tickets. Total bollocks.

Get a car?

 

[The Large One]

This 'congestion charge' is suddenly being proposed by a group of minority political parties who have effectively hijacked our local political process. All legal and above board I know. But the idea will effectively be a Green Party crusade. They morally should hold a referendum, if they refuse this and then implement the plan, in whatever guise, they will have done local democracy an enormous disservice. I, and I believe many others, would then hold our local councillors in the same contempt that our MP's currently find themselves in.

Only if the scheme is seen to be a failure.

 

[Brovion]

And not going to get the passengers until the private car option is reduced.

You also make a good point about the RSCH - considering it's the main hospital for a city, it's spectacularly ill-served by public transport with no direct bus from the population hubs of London or Lewes Rds (there is one from Lewes Rd but it's irregular and doesn't run at all at weekends)

And Brighton station. You can't get directly from Fiveways to the station.

One of the problems is that we haven't actually got PUBLIC transport, it's more accurate to talk about SHARED transport. As I've said before the Go Ahead group doesn't exist to provide a bus service to the people of Brighton - it exists to make a profit for its shareholders. All the while the profit motive is the key we'll get extortionate city centre fares (because they can get away with it) and no buses on some routes because they can't make money out of them.

 

[ken tiler]

bus tickets

And not going to get the passengers until the private car option is reduced.

You also make a good point about the RSCH - considering it's the main hospital for a city, it's spectacularly ill-served by public transport with no direct bus from the population hubs of London or Lewes Rds (there is one from Lewes Rd but it's irregular and doesn't run at all at weekends)

re the point about spending £20 pounds for a bus ticket for a family. There is an 'explorer' ticket which costs £15 pounds for a family of two adults and two children which can be used on any bus in Sussex and Surrey for a day. Its not widely advertised or even widely known by bus drivers in Brighton & Hove.