[Politics] Brexit

[beorhthelm]

I fundamentally disagree with this. The positive enthusiastic message was everywhere but vast swathes of electorate had their fingers stuffed in their ears, whilst shouting 'I want my country back, I want to control my borders' so much they couldn't hear anything.

there was never a positive enthusiastic message, it always amounted to a gun to the head "vote remain or the economy gets it". i believe many of the electorate didn't like being bullied into a decision, many probably didnt voted for the right reasons, and were misled, but they simply weren't willing to be told what to do. as a life long eurosceptic i found i was less and less enthused by the leave message but equally nver felt the remain campaign made an argument for being in the EU.

 

[nicko31]

One step closer to Brexit referendum 2.0 this morning, there is a better deal to be had from Europe but might just need to ask the public again.

 

[East Preston Gull]

With Leadsom's withdrawal the Brexit gang has revealed itself to be the most shambolic set of jokers our proud old country has ever had to endure. To think that about 17m people (minus those who thought it was an X Factor contest between Dave and Boris, those who hate politics and just wanted to stick two fingers up at the bosses and a ramshackle collection of xenophobes cranked up by the tabloids) voted for these stars of the Brexit campaign...

Gove: gone after cynically using Boris who he never trusted anyway
Johnson: stabbed; never wanted to win in the first place
Leadsom: Nasty bit of work who ramped up her own CV

J wept.

I did not vote for Gove, Farage, Johnson, Leadsom or any other leave campaigner. I voted to leave the failing EU. I expect the present government to carry out the wishes of myself and the 18million others who voted the same. If they do not carry out my wishes I will vote accordingly at the next election.
Simple really.

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

 

[pb21]

there was never a positive enthusiastic message,

Yes there was!

it always amounted to a gun to the head "vote remain or the economy gets it".

Maybe it often/mainly was from the likes of the Chuckle Brothers and the official campaign, but not always and not everywhere.

i believe many of the electorate didn't like being bullied into a decision, many probably didnt voted for the right reasons, and were misled, but they simply weren't willing to be told what to do. as a life long eurosceptic i found i was less and less enthused by the leave message but equally nver felt the remain campaign made an argument for being in the EU.

The brexit lot were telling people what to do too, and they had their own apocalyptic predictions if we were to stay, for some reason people chose to believe theirs though.

 

[GT49er]

You think? Regardless of the current bluster, we are not going to quit until a reasonable deal is on the table. It simply won't happen IMO.

There won't be any negotiations until Article 50 is activated - our EU partners are pretty firm on that. Once we've done the Article 50 thing, we're out in two years.

 

[c0lz]

One step closer to Brexit referendum 2.0 this morning, there is a better deal to be had from Europe but might just need to ask the public again.

You keep clinging to that if it makes you happy.

 

[nicko31]

Maybe we have bigger worries than Brexit

http://waronwant.org/what-ceta

 

[Baldseagull]

There won't be any negotiations until Article 50 is activated - our EU partners are pretty firm on that. Once we've done the Article 50 thing, we're out in two years.

I am certain you are correct about the terms of UK outside of the EU, I think they may be willing to talk terms of what it may take to retain the UK in the EU though.
Personally I believe this would be a new deal for the whole EU and not some opt out just for Britain, or it would appear weak.

 

[Notters]

That seems overly cynical as well as inaccurate. What elections are you talking about? there won't be any (unless there is a mass resignation of Labour MPs??) until 2020, and we will be well out of EU by then.

There bloody well should be one, as parliament is in turmoil. Whether there will be is another matter.

 

[Titanic]

There bloody well should be one, as parliament is in turmoil. Whether there will be is another matter.

We have a majority Tory government, elected a few months ago, for a fixed term 5 year parliament. Why should we have an election?

 

[Baldseagull]

Maybe we have bigger worries than Brexit

http://waronwant.org/what-ceta

The bit that most seem opposed to is the ability for a company to sue a government over policy changes that affect it's ability to turn a profit.
Personally this aspect does not frighten me, it will give businesses greater confidence in setting up and investing. A great many businesses have gone to the wall at the stroke of a pen. There are numerous examples where Government policy has been announced and companies have invested in training and compliance for a policy that then runs for 6 months and is reversed.

 

[Baldseagull]

We have a majority Tory government, elected a few months ago, for a fixed term 5 year parliament. Why should we have an election?

I believe the Queen should kick them all out and do the job herself. Be a proper Monarchy.

 

[GT49er]

I am certain you are correct about the terms of UK outside of the EU, I think they may be willing to talk terms of what it may take to retain the UK in the EU though.
Personally I believe this would be a new deal for the whole EU and not some opt out just for Britain, or it would appear weak.

Fortunately, we appear to have an incoming Prime Minister who understands her job description.

Theresa May: "Brexit means Brexit and we're going to make a success of it". "No attempt to rejoin by the back door".

Bring it on!

 

[pb21]

There's an interesting reddit question with Noam Chomsky here:

I'm still deciding which way to vote in the EU referendum. I appreciate how Noam Chomsky can deconstruct social concepts and political events so they can be understood more clearly. I emailed him to ask his opinion. His reply is below.

"Haven’t seen any compelling arguments for Brexit, and I suspect it will turn Britain into (even more of) a junior partner of the US. If I were voting, I’d vote to stay in. But without enthusiasm."

Interesting that he sees us becoming more drawn into the USA's sphere but that he would vote remain without enthusiasm. The voting intention comment highlights the major weakness in the remainers campaign. Plenty of intelligent people wished to remain, but they lacked the belief and enthusiasm to convey a positive message. Vote without enthusiasm is such a damning sentiment.

This exert is from the book 'Understanding Power: The Indispensable Chomsky'. The whole book is available as a pdf here, I highly recommend reading it:

http://www.aaronswartzday.org/wp-co...rstanding_Power_The_Indispensable_Chomsky.pdf

MAN: Dr. Chomsky, some of your examples just reemphasize for me how power is not with popular opinion. I'm wondering, what do you think should happen if power ever gets back into popular hands?

CHOMSKY: Well, it wouldn't be "back," because it never was there. But I think what we want to do is to extend the domains of popular power in as many areas as possible. In fact, a large part of human history is just that: a struggle to extend the domains of popular power and to break down centers of concentrated power

How do you explain someone so critical of power systems and the lack of democracy (over the past 60 years or so) coming to the conclusion of there being 'no compelling argument for Brexit'?

 

[Baldseagull]

Fortunately, we appear to have an incoming Prime Minister who understands her job description.


Bring it on!

From this position, she has to say that publicly, whatever her beliefs or hopes are.

 

[pastafarian]

How do you explain someone so critical of power systems and the lack of democracy (over the past 60 years or so) coming to the conclusion of there being 'no compelling argument for Brexit'?

no idea who this clown is but he has been mentioned twice now.
i understand he is an American

'no compelling argument for Brexit' eh
in that case ask him if he would be happy for USA to join The EU and hand over some law making powers to unelected officials in Brussels and also sign away supremacy of his supreme court.

let me know what he says

 

[pb21]

no idea who this clown is but he has been mentioned twice now.
i understand he is an American

'no compelling argument for Brexit' eh
in that case ask him if he would be happy for USA to join The EU and hand over some law making powers to unelected officials in Brussels and also sign away supremacy of his supreme court.

let me know what he says

Anyone else have an opinion?

It can be as embarrassing as this one although something more considerate would be good too!

 

[Notters]

We have a majority Tory government, elected a few months ago, for a fixed term 5 year parliament. Why should we have an election?

Numerous reasons. off the top of my head:

• Because all of the parties policies at the last election were in the context of being in the EU.
• Because a new, unelected (yes I realise we don't elect Prime Ministers in this country anyway) will be dealing with the biggest negotiation process in the Nation's history.
• Because the last general election was heavily influenced by the demands for a referendum.
• Because the referendum has shown that the British people DO care about politics and has highlighted the need for a more democratic system of representation.
• Because the British public should have a say on how the exit from the EU is negotiated.
• Because all other parties have demanded one.
• Because the government, apparently, doesn't represent the people, being predominantly "remain" orientated.

 

[Notters]

no idea who this clown is but he has been mentioned twice now.
i understand he is an American

'no compelling argument for Brexit' eh
in that case ask him if he would be happy for USA to join The EU and hand over some law making powers to unelected officials in Brussels and also sign away supremacy of his supreme court.

let me know what he says

It's awful having workers rights protected and clean air to breath isn't it.

 

[Titanic]

Westminster voting intention (ICM / 08 - 10 Jul, chgs from 01-03/07):

CON: 38% (+1)
LAB: 30% (-)
UKIP: 15% (-)
LDEM: 8% (-)
GRN: 4% (-)

not that we are going to have or need to have a GE.