[Politics] Brexit

[LlcoolJ]

what we have certainly learnt is that we in the UK shouldnt do referendums, because we dont really understand them.

Completely correct. Although it's not just a UK thing. Complicated issues should never be given a "yes/no" vote by the public. Because they're never as simple as that. As they're complicated.

 

[studio150]

The referendum was cross-party, it wasn't a mandate for the Tories, Labour or even UKIP. The fact that we don't know who will lead the negotiations nor the strategy needs addressing and I think for the sake of UK politics an election might clear the air a little and bring some clarity.

What clarity would be brought by holding a General Election. We still won't know what the negotiations will bring in terms of trading with the EU or the migration issue, as we will not have evoked article 50 nor be aware of what is on the table to consider.

 

[LlcoolJ]

The psychology of "Leave". Some hard truths (which will obviously all be denied really badly by the usual suspects, bring it).

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...-brexit-trump-and-the-rise-of-the-far-right/?

 

[Triggaaar]

The psychology of "Leave". Some hard truths (which will obviously all be denied really badly by the usual suspects, bring it).

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...-brexit-trump-and-the-rise-of-the-far-right/?

Maybe you're anxious because of the result and not thinking straight.

 

[LlcoolJ]

Maybe you're anxious because of the result and not thinking straight.

Anxious? Hardly. Just interesting to look at the psychology of the situation. When coupled with this, it's quite worrying.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ans-new-party-to-replace-ukip-without-farage?

Facts irrelevant, "the Trump effect". From the horse's mouth.

I realise you can never admit that you're wrong and that as you bought into this you have to defend it, fair enough. But don't confuse that with me "not thinking straight".

 

[fruitnveg]

No it wouldn’t. More loons like her equals more danger.
She is simply spouting clueless bed wetting nonsense.
No sane person believes (like you and her) that the referendum result was a victory for hate or we have witnessed the stirrings of fascism in Britain or that old people don’t have a future in this country.
This sort of wet blanketry should be discouraged along with the Soylent Green group think.
I hope she is never allowed to play with matches.

You're wrong, sort of. While not quite fascism, we have witnessed the stirrings of totalitarianism in Britain. We just witnessed c40,000 people march through London against democrasy. We've been subject to years of silencing dissent by shouting down oposing views as rascist, bigotted (oh, the irony), xenophobic, or whatever other phobia they think will curb discussion against their world view.

 

[CheeseRolls]

Yes we do. I've pretty much disagreed with everything you've said in this thread but fully agree here. There needs to be one so that whoever leads the country through Brexit has a mandate for doing so. The referendum was a game-changer and it's peculiar and important enough to warrant breaking the fixed term rule.

I reckon it's pretty much guaranteed that the Tories will get back in and the down-side is that Labour will probably lose seats to UKIP in the North but I think it might just be the only way for the Labour Party to get rid of Corbyn and keep the party together. They will be stronger after this and they will also be able to deal with the entryists from the far left after having fought and lost an election under Corbyn. UKIP won't be around in the long run and Labour supporters will return after Brexit.

If Stephen Crabb can make the right noises about gay rights and explicitly disown the 'cure theory' that the group he was aligned to claim then I think he might be our best hope for the next 5 years. The rather odd views on gays aside, it would be great to see a proper One Nation Tory as PM. Gove is a fruit-loop. Leadsom is apparently the most incompetent minister ever, Liam Fox is a hard-right cheat and Theresa May's prevaricating on right to abode for existing EU citizens here can frankly pee off.

Wasn't sovereignty a key tenet of the Brexit strategy? It would be ironic if a general election was required to determine direction.

My gut feeling is that a May lead Tory party would deliver a Norwegian style EU relationship and move on. The right to abode stance is I suspect political posturing, which will eventually give way to pragmatism.

The likes of Boris and Farage, will be back in the medium term to point out what a mess has been made of Brexit and we will go back through all this again.

Interesting watching Panorama last night. Immigration, immigration, immigration. Now that the Chancellor has effectively abandoned austerity, would more schools and doctors address some of the key concerns of many?

 

[Guinness Boy]

The psychology of "Leave". Some hard truths (which will obviously all be denied really badly by the usual suspects, bring it).

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...-brexit-trump-and-the-rise-of-the-far-right/?

Maybe you're anxious because of the result and not thinking straight.

The irony of the final paragraph................

"As for media reports of “Bregret” – leave voters who now regret their choice – Kahneman has argued that most won’t regret their decision, because regret is rare. Instead, people find ways to explain what is happening around them that lay the blame with someone else."

 

[Guinness Boy]

Yes we do. I've pretty much disagreed with everything you've said in this thread but fully agree here. There needs to be one so that whoever leads the country through Brexit has a mandate for doing so. The referendum was a game-changer and it's peculiar and important enough to warrant breaking the fixed term rule.

I reckon it's pretty much guaranteed that the Tories will get back in and the down-side is that Labour will probably lose seats to UKIP in the North but I think it might just be the only way for the Labour Party to get rid of Corbyn and keep the party together. They will be stronger after this and they will also be able to deal with the entryists from the far left after having fought and lost an election under Corbyn. UKIP won't be around in the long run and Labour supporters will return after Brexit.

If Stephen Crabb can make the right noises about gay rights and explicitly disown the 'cure theory' that the group he was aligned to claim then I think he might be our best hope for the next 5 years. The rather odd views on gays aside, it would be great to see a proper One Nation Tory as PM. Gove is a fruit-loop. Leadsom is apparently the most incompetent minister ever, Liam Fox is a hard-right cheat and Theresa May's prevaricating on right to abode for existing EU citizens here can frankly pee off.

I suspect we're on opposite sides also but this is good analysis. The only thing it leaves out is the paradox of voting to leave the EU "to take control back" which will, unless there is a General Election, result in an unelected PM passing laws via an unelected upper house. How's that more democratic?

 

[Hampster Gull]

You're wrong, sort of. While not quite fascism, we have witnessed the stirrings of totalitarianism in Britain. We just witnessed c40,000 people march through London against democrasy. We've been subject to years of silencing dissent by shouting down oposing views as rascist, bigotted (oh, the irony), xenophobic, or whatever other phobia they think will curb discussion against their world view.

You are confused. The democracy in the UK is that we elect our representatives to pariliament to make our laws on our behalf. They cannot delegate that. The referendum ia hot some sort of higher order democracy in law, its for information. It will be acted on in some way of course, but then there may be an election of some other event that provides new information. A long way to run, as is right.

 

[beorhthelm]

...Now that the Chancellor has effectively abandoned austerity, would more schools and doctors address some of the key concerns of many?

he effectively abandoned austerity years ago, he formally did so this week. whether more schools and particualy doctors will address any problems is a deeper political issue, are the policies correct, not just funding.

 

[Guinness Boy]

he effectively abandoned austerity years ago, he formally did so this week. whether more schools and particualy doctors will address any problems is a deeper political issue, are the policies correct, not just funding.

Listening to Nicky Morgan on Today this morning, talking about the teachers' strike, you'd think that budget surplus was mandatory on pain of death.....

 

[Lincoln Imp]

No it wouldn’t. More loons like her equals more danger.
She is simply spouting clueless bed wetting nonsense.
No sane person believes (like you and her) that the referendum result was a victory for hate or we have witnessed the stirrings of fascism in Britain or that old people don’t have a future in this country.
This sort of wet blanketry should be discouraged along with the Soylent Green group think.
I hope she is never allowed to play with matches.

If you cannot accept that the referendum result was heavily influenced by wholesale stoking of fears about migrants then I am afraid you are being delusional. Hate? Sometimes. Xenophobia? Often. Fear? Frequently.

From Farage to Johnson the Brexiters knew exactly the tunes they were playing.

 

[studio150]

he effectively abandoned austerity years ago, he formally did so this week. whether more schools and particualy doctors will address any problems is a deeper political issue, are the policies correct, not just funding.

And when are these schools going to be built and when more doctors appear.

Although the removal of the target has been relaxed I do not see a spending spree, and everything will be wait until we are out of the EU formally and additional money is available.

 

[studio150]

Listening to Nicky Morgan on Today this morning, talking about the teachers' strike, you'd think that budget surplus was mandatory on pain of death.....

Given the rush to fine parents doe taking their children out of school during term time, I assume that all parents are able to claim the same amount back as their children are missing a precious days education

 

[Billy the Fish]

The psychology of "Leave". Some hard truths (which will obviously all be denied really badly by the usual suspects, bring it).

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...-brexit-trump-and-the-rise-of-the-far-right/?

To be fair at least the remain voters on this thread are consistent.

Find a few entirely subjective lines of text that support your view or rubbish the result and then claim it as fact!

 

[Triggaaar]

Anxious? Hardly. Just interesting to look at the psychology of the situation.

It would be, but that piece was told from one side, so mostly biased nonsense.

When coupled with this, it's quite worrying.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ans-new-party-to-replace-ukip-without-farage?

What exactly are you worried about there - that a new party will pop up and win power?

I realise you can never admit that you're wrong

Well you're mistaken there

and that as you bought into this you have to defend it, fair enough.

I didn't buy into anything. I thought about which way I'd like to vote and I did so. I don't have to defend it, I obviously had an opinion and that hasn't changed. My main concern right now is that the potential next PMs all seem to be saying we won't have freedom of movement after leaving the EU, and I don't think that's a sensible way forward, because it will presumably mean losing access to the single market.

But don't confuse that with me "not thinking straight".

I wasn't being serious, I was just mocking the article you linked to. According to that, those of you that are annoyed you lost the vote will make bad decisions.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36683234

 

[Notters]

If you cannot accept that the referendum result was heavily influenced by wholesale stoking of fears about migrants then I am afraid you are being delusional. Hate? Sometimes. Xenophobia? Often. Fear? Frequently.

From Farage to Johnson the Brexiters knew exactly the tunes they were playing.

Indeed. The key tactic of the leavers was to try to make people think that it was the remainers that were doing the fear-mongering, whilst of course it was predominantly the other way round.

 

[Billy the Fish]

Indeed. The key tactic of the leavers was to try to make people think that it was the remainers that were doing the fear-mongering, whilst of course it was predominantly the other way round.

I think both sides were scaremongering as much as each other.