Brand v Paxman

[brightonrock]

The fact brand has made money and is now rich is irrelevant - he doesn't need to justify himself because he's attacking the backgrounds and interests of career politicians, not everyone who's rich. Just the rich in positions of power. If he was an MP saying this he'd be a hypocrite, but he's not, he's a comedian.

And FWIW, those writing him off out of hand because you don't find him funny, don't like how he dresses or acts, or say he has to suggest an alternative for his opinion to be valid, are missing the point entirely. He's saying the existing system is broken, and serves only to hush dissenting opinion and to reinforce centuries old divising structures of the privileged and the underclasses. Shouting him down because you don't like his comedy is surely proving his point? I don't agree we shouldn't vote but I can understand the point of view.

This frustrates the crap out of me in modern politics, everyone is so obsessed with image or party loyalties (as members or voters) that the message itself is lost. Disregard who's saying it and listen instead to what's bring said. Agree or disagree, but don't attack the point of view out of principle because you don't like who's saying it.

 

[symyjym]

It's becoming clear that you can't fix democracy with democracy while there is capitalism, especially when those who own the media have such specific political agendas. Minor parties come and go, others resonate for decades, but nothing ever changes.

For revolution to occur we all need a common goal, something that all men can agree on, and rise up and make it happen where democracy has failed. Well now we have this common goal, in the form of social and economic disparity, the destruction of our planet, war and all the other failings of capitalism. Brands' role is merely to raise awareness, not only about the content of the issues, but the fact that the people have the power to make them happen.

In the age of the internet there will be a natural revolution, it's happening now.

In a democracy we are always changing laws and revisiting scenarios of where previous actions of governments and systems fail. It’s not perfect but it plays a part in progress and revolution is something that happens over decades if not centuries.

Voting even happens at family level when you ask your kids what film they want to go and see, we cannot get away from that.

For the last 5000 years plus our beliefs were built on a fear of God for control so we have come a long way, but still have further to go.

In the last 20 years there has been a massive change and this is just the start, it has nothing to do with Brand.

 

[somerset]

There are many communist ideas that have never been practised, particularly in a modern Western society.

Because at its core, however you dress it up, it aspires to remove freedom of choice from those who live under it, communism that is. That will never be countenanced by the liberal voices in a modern western society, we tend to value our choices.

 

[Guinness Boy]

To be fair - Brand was pushed to offer an alternative and how else can you do that other than using the labels or lexicon already established. If he said 'Don'tbesoselfishism' was the way forward would that sound better?

I agree that socialism has failed, but I like to think that we can still all agree that things aren't going well and fresh blood/ideas are very welcome?

Fresh ideas are fine but disagreeing with the current system without offering an idea of how to change it isn't really a fresh idea at all. Another comic - Billy Connelly - used to say exactly the same as Brand only shorter. "Don't vote, it only encourages them."

I don't think that Western Liberal Democracy has failed in any way. There are winners and losers but it was always thus. I would like to see a society where the genuinely vulnerable were helped more but not at the expense of giving shirkers and chancers a hand up. Sadly for me human nature dictates this is impossible.

I used to be quite lefty. Bushy probably thinks I still am. But in reality I would like to make my mind up issue by issue these days and society needs meritocracy and it needs winners and losers for us to evolve as a species. Again IMO.

 

[Seagull kimchi]

In the age of the internet there will be a natural revolution, it's happening now.

In a democracy we are always changing laws and revisiting scenarios of where previous actions of governments and systems fail. It’s not perfect but it plays a part in progress and revolution is something that happens over decades if not centuries.

Voting even happens at family level when you ask your kids what film they want to go and see, we cannot get away from that.

For the last 5000 years our beliefs were built on a fear of God so we have come a long way, but still have further to go.

In the last 20 years there has been a massive change and this is just the start, it has nothing to do with Brand.

Agree a lot with what you say - but you've contradicted yourself here. The age of the internet is the reason why millions of people have just watched Brand and it's people like him speaking candidly about the inequalities within the system that are changing opinions compared to the soundbites that have been fed to us from previous media.

 

[Goldstone76]

For those who feel the present system works please take a look around you. Do you really think there is any difference between the political parties? Open your eyes because whats happening (and has been happening for years) is complete madness. Something has to change. To those who say "the system is ok" I say no its not!

When all the trees have been cut down,
when all the animals have been hunted,
when all the waters are polluted,
when all the air is unsafe to breathe,
only then will you discover you cannot eat money.
~ Cree Prophecy ~

 

[beorhthelm]

So to reverse the question - how do advocates of the present democratic system believe our current problems can be resolved promptly (coz time is ticking) within the framework of our political infrastructure?

care to define what the current problems are to give some framing? i'd wager neither the democratic system or changing it will directly effect as much as you'd like.

 

[symyjym]

Agree a lot with what you say - but you've contradicted yourself here. The age of the internet is the reason why millions of people have just watched Brand and it's people like him speaking candidly about the inequalities within the system that are changing opinions compared to the soundbites that have been fed to us from previous media.

But he hasn't told us anything we don't know. If he said we all have to vote but we must spoil it, it would have an effect, but to promote not voting at all counts for nothing and doesn't change anything.

His first policy has failed and he hasn't got a second one.

 

[The Spanish]

For those who feel the present system works please take a look around you. Do you really think there is any difference between the political parties? Open your eyes because whats happening (and has been happening for years) is complete madness. Something has to change. To those who say "the system is ok" I say no its not!

When all the trees have been cut down,
when all the animals have been hunted,
when all the waters are polluted,
when all the air is unsafe to breathe,
only then will you discover you cannot eat money.
~ Cree Prophecy ~

if all the animals have been hunted, it probably means you have already discovered you cannot eat money, but you can eat animals

i bet that was made up by some hippy in the seventies with a t shirt shop. bet its got sod all to do with the cree

 

[somerset]

- he doesn't need to justify himself because he's attacking the backgrounds and interests of career politicians, not everyone who's rich. Just the rich in positions of power.

There goes his theory of Socialist Egalitarianism then, the redistribution of wealth he proposes will not affect the rich who happen to not hold any sway over us, that's his bankroll safe then.

 

[Seagull kimchi]

Fresh ideas are fine but disagreeing with the current system without offering an idea of how to change it isn't really a fresh idea at all. Another comic - Billy Connelly - used to say exactly the same as Brand only shorter. "Don't vote, it only encourages them."

I don't think that Western Liberal Democracy has failed in any way. There are winners and losers but it was always thus. I would like to see a society where the genuinely vulnerable were helped more but not at the expense of giving shirkers and chancers a hand up. Sadly for me human nature dictates this is impossible.

I used to be quite lefty. Bushy probably thinks I still am. But in reality I would like to make my mind up issue by issue these days and society needs meritocracy and it needs winners and losers for us to evolve as a species. Again IMO.

Fair points - meritocracy is a cool label - but where's the starting line, you can't deny that some people have a head start in their ability to display their merit? Accountability sounds good too but how do you measure that and who is counting? Why do nurses and carers earn less than office workers?

 

[Goldstone76]

care to define what the current problems are to give some framing? i'd wager neither the democratic system or changing it will directly effect as much as you'd like.

The problem is peoples belief in what they are told by the state and government. Remember the MMR fiasco? Its now proved the vaccination does cause autism/asbergers etc. Much of what the public beleive is true is untrue.. Vaccinations are actually bad for you and is a way for pharmaceticals to earn vast revenue.. The problem is cognitive dissonance.. Festinger's (1957) cognitive dissonance theory suggests that we have an inner drive to hold all our attitudes and beliefs in harmony and avoid disharmony (or dissonance). In other words society now has two groups.. Sheeple (who believe all they are told) by authority and the rest (those who question authority and the world we live in and do do believe all they are told).

 

[Seagull kimchi]

But he hasn't told us anything we don't know. If he said we all have to vote but we must spoil it, it would have an effect, but to promote not voting at all counts for nothing and doesn't change anything.

His first policy has failed and he hasn't got a second one.

So what's your manifesto to make things a bit better than they are? Or do you think everything is tickety-boo?

His point is to use his position in the media to say 'I think we should be questioning everything that gets done in our name and maybe make a bit more noise about the things that seem unfair' the next step is for us to stand up for our principles and protest effectively.

 

[Nibble]

For those who feel the present system works please take a look around you. Do you really think there is any difference between the political parties? Open your eyes because whats happening (and has been happening for years) is complete madness. Something has to change. To those who say "the system is ok" I say no its not!

When all the trees have been cut down,
when all the animals have been hunted,
when all the waters are polluted,
when all the air is unsafe to breathe,
only then will you discover you cannot eat money.
~ Cree Prophecy ~

Cliched and tiresome as what you have written is, it's true and no-one really disputes it. I think it's more that people in the western world have been saying it since 1964 and it holds no water anymore without at least a viable suggestion of an alternative. In short, take a shit or get off the pan.

 

[Guinness Boy]

The problem is peoples belief in what they are told by the state and government. Remember the MMR fiasco? Its now proved the vaccination does cause autism/asbergers etc. Much of what the public beleive is true is untrue.. Vaccinations are actually bad for you and is a way for pharmaceticals to earn vast revenue.. The problem is cognitive dissonance.. Festinger's (1957) cognitive dissonance theory suggests that we have an inner drive to hold all our attitudes and beliefs in harmony and avoid disharmony (or dissonance). In other words society now has two groups.. Sheeple (who believe all they are told) by authority and the rest (those who question authority and the world we live in and do do believe all they are told).

Utter garbage. It's not been proved anywhere. You sound like a follower of Viera Schiebner who has been totally discredited. Here's the wiki page for her but of course, since it is openly editable people should have a look at the links that totally discredit all her evidence and research.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viera_Scheibner

Also have a read of Ben Goldacre's book Bad Science that takes Andrew Wakefield's "research" to bits. He's also just written a follow up Bad Pharma criticising the big pharma industry so totally independent.

Vaccination works. No TB in the Western world. No smallpox any more. Bill Gates donating billions towards it which I don't think is some kind of bet.

 

[Seagull kimchi]

care to define what the current problems are to give some framing? i'd wager neither the democratic system or changing it will directly effect as much as you'd like.

Corporate greed, exponential wealth divide, being governed by industrial/commercial interests rather that the elected candidates who are handcuffed.

 

[beorhthelm]

The problem is peoples belief in what they are told by the state and government. Remember the MMR fiasco? Its now proved the vaccination does cause autism/asbergers etc.

i remember that the research by Wakefield was flawed and no one has proven any such link since. you invoke belief in authority and say i'm daft to believe it, overlooking you are simply believing in an alternative "unofficial" authority. people tend not to believe as much as you think that comes down from the state, but they do give credibility to experts. genuine ones, not pseudo experts on Youtube that have no expertise or experience in the field.

my point you quoted is rather about the concept of "democracy" and what it or an alternative covers. really its just a governance process, most of societies ills fall outside of how we chose who joins the ruling elite, changing this method doesnt address the problems.

Corporate greed, exponential wealth divide, being governed by industrial/commercial interests rather that the elected candidates who are handcuffed.

... all aspects of our economic not political system. i suppose you want to remove all capitialism, have no ownership, no "profit" so their can be no greed or industrial or commercial insterst against yours? and a pony.

 

[somerset]

Its now proved the vaccination does cause autism/asbergers etc. ... Vaccinations are actually bad for you and is a way for pharmaceticals to earn vast revenue..

Crikey, this line really takes the ignorance biscuit. Every vaccination has a risk, by its nature you are introducing the very thing you are trying to eliminate, when my two kids went through the MMR program, it was made very bloody clear that there was an x% chance of complications, this was balanced against the near certainty of broader complications if one or other of the three were contracted at some time in the future. This amazing paranoia resulting in many opting their children out of the scheme ( nice bit of family democracy there) led directly to an increase again in the instances of M M or R in recent years, go figure eh!!

 

[KZNSeagull]

The problem is peoples belief in what they are told by the state and government. Remember the MMR fiasco? Its now proved the vaccination does cause autism/asbergers etc. Much of what the public beleive is true is untrue.. Vaccinations are actually bad for you and is a way for pharmaceticals to earn vast revenue.. The problem is cognitive dissonance.. Festinger's (1957) cognitive dissonance theory suggests that we have an inner drive to hold all our attitudes and beliefs in harmony and avoid disharmony (or dissonance). In other words society now has two groups.. Sheeple (who believe all they are told) by authority and the rest (those who question authority and the world we live in and do do believe all they are told).

Proven by whom?!! Please explain why autism rates are going up in un-vaccinated children?

Oh and for your information, Asperger's IS Autism, just a specific point on the autistic spectrum that has been given a different name.

 

[sten_super]

Utter garbage. It's not been proved anywhere. You sound like a follower of Viera Schiebner who has been totally discredited. Here's the wiki page for her but of course, since it is openly editable people should have a look at the links that totally discredit all her evidence and research.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viera_Scheibner

Also have a read of Ben Goldacre's book Bad Science that takes Andrew Wakefield's "research" to bits. He's also just written a follow up Bad Pharma criticising the big pharma industry so totally independent.

Vaccination works. No TB in the Western world. No smallpox any more. Bill Gates donating billions towards it which I don't think is some kind of bet.

Thanks for pointing this out in a much calmer way than I was about to launch into. My cousin and her husband (amazingly a scientist by profession) refuse to give their children any immunisations at all and it drives me absolutely mental - they simply won't be dissuaded of their completely cuckoo views.

I wonder if Goldstone76 is The Truth's new account?