Brand v Paxman

[BBassic]

Consumerism isn't something that ultimately leads to wellbeing, except for those who profit from it. It is a distraction from the real problem, which is that we all work hard for relatively little reward, while the rich elite live excessive lifestyles at the expense of the rest of humanity.

Yes, things are "comfortable" or "OK" for many of us, but our quality of lives are getting worse as each year passes. We are living in the 21st century, considering the knowledge and technology we have at our disposal, we should all be living in a much better world, social & economic inequality should be a thing of the past - but it isn't. So many young people are discontent and disillusioned with modern living, there is little hope for most of them - the very best so many can hope for is that one day they might own their own home. This is without mentioning the poverty that effects millions of people all around the world, or the relentless consumption of our planets finite resources and the destruction of our fragile environment - which all stem from the same problem.

Revolution is around the corner because democracy will not fix these problems, instead it perpetuates them. People are not only frustrated, they are now aware of the cause of their frustrations and have ideas how to fix it - it is only a matter of time before some kind of event or movement arises that will start a revolution to fix our broken economic & political systems. It will be just another chapter in human history.

If it wasn't such a chunk of text I'd make this my signature. Well said that man.

 

[GreersElbow]

Revolution is inevitable, we can learn that from history and such is human nature. The idea of such a drastic change will take many people out of their comfort zones, as they pretend that everything is OK as they work hard in their offices to make some anonymous fat cat even richer for doing next to nothing, then going home to pay taxes and bills which do essentially the same thing. The first step is for all people to be aware of the problems, share the same ultimate goals and realise that we can make a difference. It's time for a revolutionary political change for the 21st century - it's time for social and economic equality.

It's inevitable? In what paradigm will it merge? The only real successful revolutions have been the American and French revolutions, and they were about liberty and freedom. These revolutions are still evident today in how the U.S and French system works, yet when we look at revolutions that sought an egalitarian society, it became corrupt and once again a new political elite emerged. In what way can we truly create a society that is truly fair in the eyes of what Marx and Engels wrote about?

The truth is, politics is far too subjective. Your views of what are fair are going to be different to mine, and they'll be different to the next guy. So finding that universal agreement as to what is fair is difficult. Equal distribution is a touchy subject. If we had a system in which everyone got an equal amount of say, food. The would it be fair for a fat person to get more than a skinny person? Why can't that skinny person have more than what someone deems "fair". There'll be conflict in interests even in a socialist society, because interests are a personal, subjective matter. Yes, you'll find people who share the same, but then you'll find others with opposing. At what point will you find an equilibrium where everyone's happy?

You talk of people having the same ultimate goals, what goals would that be? Happiness? Your ideas of happiness are going to be different to mine, Joe's, Bob's and Amanda's. The fact is, socialism tries to turn subjectivity into objectivity, it doesn't work. The USSR's ideas of a soviet state were different to those of Poland's, Ukraine's etc etc. I find it impossible to find objectivity in humanity's ultimate goal. England struggles to find a universal national identity, and one could argue that's because of the divide between North and South. There's multiple identities within England, the North is quite different to the South and this can be seen through the electoral system. The North traditionally votes Labour and the South Conservative, this is because they have different ideas as to how they can represented and their ideas on what's best for their communities and ultimately themselves.

 

[The Merry Prankster]

ok.....what am i charged with?

You are not entitled to know the charge, it is sufficient for you to know that you have been found guilty.

 

[brightn'ove]

Crikey, this line really takes the ignorance biscuit. Every vaccination has a risk, by its nature you are introducing the very thing you are trying to eliminate, when my two kids went through the MMR program, it was made very bloody clear that there was an x% chance of complications, this was balanced against the near certainty of broader complications if one or other of the three were contracted at some time in the future. This amazing paranoia resulting in many opting their children out of the scheme ( nice bit of family democracy there) led directly to an increase again in the instances of M M or R in recent years, go figure eh!!

Funnily enough we were just discussing misconception of risk at uni, it is very bizarre.

Also AFAIK nobody on the planet has proven a link between vaccines and autism, try again Goldstone76.

 

[Nibble]

Exactly. We are being run by a bunch of oafish clowns; who joined a boys club after school burning a £50 note in front of a homeless person (this is what they do initiate themselves, what a caring club is the Bullingdon boys) who go looking for badgers waving their guns about, and when they don't shoot enough they say that the badgers have 'moved the goalposts' (terribly unsporting old chap) they have told the World that the UK will be the hub for drilling in the Arctic, sold workers rights off, flogged off Royal Mail cheaply, introduced tax breaks to the most polluting industry on the planet, introduced tax concessions for the hyper-wealthy, legitimised loan shark Companies who charge 4000% interest, used public taxes to fight for the right of Bankers to get unlimited bonuses. All this, while the nation's favourite programme is a competition to bake cakes. No wonder this Country is fracked.

The change of localisation i.e. Transition Towns is a major step forward to sustainability in my humble view, this is the sort of panacea that would be very useful. The world has 5 million farmers, it probably needs 50 million: we need to go back to the land and I'm not talking about hippy communes. Make no mistake, there is a reason why the price of petrol has increased five fold in the last decade and that the Energy Companies are struggling despite making a vast profit.

Back to the land? The entire global population? This is what I mean. You're not thinking man.

 

[sten_super]

Mustafa, I appreciate your attempts to demonstrate your perspective, but I think it's a bit 'narrow'. Let me highlight...

Consumerism isn't something that ultimately leads to wellbeing, except for those who profit from it. It is a distraction from the real problem, which is that we all work hard for relatively little reward, while the rich elite live excessive lifestyles at the expense of the rest of humanity.

If you think we (by which I suppose I'm talking about people currently of working age) work hard for little reward, can I suggest that you talk to your grandparents, or (if you could) their grandparents. A lot of us (more than ever before in this country and across much of the developed world) have office jobs which may (or may not) be intellectually 'hard' but certainly aren't physically so. And to show for it we have iPads, massive f*ck-off TVs and all the rest of it. Compare that to someone that 100 years ago worked in a filthy coal mine for 12 hours a day in order to provide a roof over his head and some basic food on the table.

Yes, things are "comfortable" or "OK" for many of us, but our quality of lives are getting worse as each year passes.

Real wages have been declining since 2008 - before that they were, on the whole, rising. Even looking at income quantiles and professions data almost all had constant earnings - and in that time technology has advanced and that same level of income is able to buy more. There are exceptions (housing is the obvious one) but in pretty much every other area it's hard to make a case that long-term our lives are getting worse.

We are living in the 21st century, considering the knowledge and technology we have at our disposal, we should all be living in a much better world, social & economic inequality should be a thing of the past - but it isn't.

I actually think this is utopian, rather than narrow. There's nothing to suggest that human society has ever been equal. There aren't any other observable cases in the animal kingdom (at least that I can think of) that suggest that equality is a long-term equilibrium for any kind of functioning society. It's hard to make a case that any society tends towards equality - I think the opposite is true, that societies tend towards greater inequality.

I think a lot of your aims are laudable, I just don't think that what's happening now is as out of the ordinary as you do.

 

[Goldstone76]

i suggest you do actual research on the subject, how and why vaccination works, acedemic and medical studies going back hundreds of years (pre-colonial India and China understood the principle if not the mechanism of why). maybe ask some adults over 50 or 60 how many people they knew had polio or TB and ask someone under 40 how many people they know with the same (hint, the answer will be several and none)

Granted some vaccinations are needed. . But your mistaken for believing that all that is given today is healthier in the long run. Watch the doc then come back.

 

[strings]

I agree that he has started a debate for a day but he has got the same madness in his eyes as Tony Blair.

Every interview he has he will bring up the ex drug addict card as if it is some sort of badge of honour and whilst he preaches reformed enlightenment he also glorifies it as a special journey. The Amy Winehouse message is a more powerful one.

Also with the Andrew Sachs phone call prank I would find it hard to use him as a moral compass. All he is about is self publicity so I question his motivations as much as the next politian.

I disagree with this bit. I think Jonathon Ross was in the wrong with the Sachs call, Brand didn't actually say that much of offence.

 

[Nibble]

Why don't you believe that law, political theory, science and education can't solve these problems - just as they have solved all the other problems in human history. It wasn't long ago that we were all ruled by Kings and Queens, and now are ruled by the rich. Have faith in humanity to learn from its historical mistakes, just as it always has done. There are some great economic & political minds on this planet, but unfortunately they are not in our governments - but one day they will be, you can count on that.

Of course there will be. This will not go on forever, nothing does. it is GUARANTEED to. However, if the extent of your plan for after the revolution is "Uhm, science and education will sort it out". What does that even MEAN?

When the revolution comes I hope it is long after I'm gone. It will be an unmitigated shambles.

 

[Seagull kimchi]

I agree that he has started a debate for a day but he has got the same madness in his eyes as Tony Blair.

Every interview he has he will bring up the ex drug addict card as if it is some sort of badge of honour and whilst he preaches reformed enlightenment he also glorifies it as a special journey. The Amy Winehouse message is a more powerful one.

Also with the Andrew Sachs phone call prank I would find it hard to use him as a moral compass. All he is about is self publicity so I question his motivations as much as the next politian.

I don't agree with the man - I agree with the message.

 

[BadFish]

K

Funnily enough we were just discussing misconception of risk at uni, it is very bizarre.

Also AFAIK nobody on the planet has proven a link between vaccines and autism, try again Goldstone76.

Not proven no. But there is some interesting theories. Understanding of autism is in its infancy, to rule any links out at such an early stage is folly.

 

[Leighgull]

International trends and shifting political spectra all point to a massive upheaval coming for us all. Whether it be the power struggles across the Middle East, the huge rise of Chinese imperialism or the increasingly debt laden United States.
You would have to be completely ignorant or self deluded to imagine that "things" can continue on this trajectory indefinitely. Europe has tackled a currency crisis by disenfranchising large swathes of its southern margin, Germany is beginning to flex its international muscle after decades in the shadows and the Far Right in The Netherlands, France and Nordic countries is gaining ground by offering quick fix solutions to international migration caused by war and poverty.

The last time the planet was boiling like this we had a world war...this time, I think the war will not be between states but between populations and their governments.

 

[Nibble]

People are claiming science and education will iron out any problems after the revolution. Most of you peanuts are arguing vaccines are harmful. Vaccinations! Vaccines, the perfect marriage of science and education reduced to a conspiracy theory. These people want to run the globe! Give me strength.

 

[GreersElbow]

(1)but our quality of lives are getting worse as each year passes
(2)Revolution is around the corner because democracy will not fix these problems

1) Are they? Technology has majorly improved the quality of life we live, it's easy to say our quality of life is appalling now without bringing historical context into the matter. Medical innovation is incredible, the quality of healthcare now is better than ever. But the poorest person of today, would be a rich man 100 years ago. Since the introduction of the minimum wage, wages have been stagnant. http://www.measuringworth.com/ukearncpi/ - Here, between 1979-1997 the Conservative years before the minimum wage, wages increased dramatically. Since 1997, they've been stagnant.

Cost of living these days can be attributed to the longevity of QE in recent years, inflation has hurt the poorest in society. Whilst you advocate revolution, how would we get resources from other country without a currency system, a currency system would not be suitable to an egalitarian society, because of the redistribution issue. No one would in theory would be able to save their money. Because saving money will mean at one point, you'll have more than someone else; this would mean they'd be able to acquire more goods and services than someone else. Egalitarianism cannot work with money, and without money you cannot have a currency.

2) You talk about democracy being the issue, you need to be more specific. Do you mean democracy is bad, and we shouldn't have it? That worked well for Nazi Germany, USSR and North Korea. Without a form of democracy, you giving power to a small powerful elite, and you'll have a dictatorship of a minority. On the opposite end, if we had direct democracy, you'd create a tyranny of the majority. I think you should be more specific, as now you sound like a Stalinist, and we all know how bat-shit crazy they are. Or do you mean parliamentary democracy? In which case, can I propose presidential democracy?

Although, I agree to some extent re: democracy, it's a system that creates unfairness through majority ruling, but what alternative is there to democracy? dictatorship.

EDIT: The measuring worth tool is interesting, if you do it from 1945-2011 and see how wages have increase.

The last time the planet was boiling like this we had a world war...this time, I think the war will not be between states but between populations and their governments.

It's interesting you say that, the Treaty of Versailles economic implications it had on Germany are, in some sense comparable to that in which Greece is being treated over its bail outs. We've seen a huge rise in far-right activity in Greece than any other European nation.

 

[Nibble]

Most of you revolutionaries are just the kept wanting to be the keeper .

 

[hybrid_x]

International trends and shifting political spectra all point to a massive upheaval coming for us all. Whether it be the power struggles across the Middle East, the huge rise of Chinese imperialism or the increasingly debt laden United States.
You would have to be completely ignorant or self deluded to imagine that "things" can continue on this trajectory indefinitely.

totally this.

It's a head off between the economy, solar flare, and meteors (comet isons tail), fun times ahead, and the sleepy masses who still sit in front of the bbc believing the illusion of labor v tory will be caught cold.

The elite might even be "killing the dollar" deliberately, and may bring britcoin out of the martial law madness that will ensue. Plenty of memes, plenty of trajectories, one thing is for sure - impermanence is king.

 

[Nibble]

No-one claims it will go on forever but what you people are failing to see is that there is not going to be some peaceful global shift in consciousness. You start breaking down what people are accustomed to and trying to take away what people have built up you can expect a few decades of mass global conflict and it will end up with the people with the biggest guns winning. As history has proven time and time again. Come on, grow up.

 

[Seagull kimchi]

People are claiming science and education will iron out any problems after the revolution. Most of you peanuts are arguing vaccines are harmful. Vaccinations! Vaccines, the perfect marriage of science and education reduced to a conspiracy theory. These people want to run the globe! Give me strength.

This from a guy who states 'crime is a disease. I'm the cure' So how do you cure Politicians fraudulently claiming expenses? Lobbying for interests? They don't seem to end up penalised as compared to everyday offenders.

 

[Nibble]

This from a guy who states 'crime is a disease. I'm the cure' So how do you cure Politicians fraudulently claiming expenses? Lobbying for interests? They don't seem to end up penalised as compared to everyday offenders.

No they don't. Are you expecting me to argue against that point? What do you suggest we do with them?

 

[GreersElbow]

totally this.

It's a head off between the economy, solar flare, and meteors (comet isons tail), fun times ahead, and the sleepy masses who still sit in front of the bbc believing the illusion of labor v tory will be caught cold.

The elite might even be "killing the dollar" deliberately, and may bring britcoin out of the martial law madness that will ensue. Plenty of memes, plenty of trajectories, one thing is for sure - impermanence is king.

Funniest thing i've read in a while, thank you.