Brand v Paxman

[LargeHadronZugzwang]

The idea that no revolution will come about, whether consciously or by other means is to totally ignore history. The Anasazi, Mayans, Romans, Easter Islanders et al, all abused their resource base. What is different is that it is occurring globally now. If we continue with a system that perpetuates the fact that we are exhausting the carrying capacity of the Earth several times over, then things are going to change rather radically no matter what we do, regardless of any cognitive dissonance. The problem is the growth mechanism, somehow we have to get off this dogmatic treadmill before it bites us in the arse. The current crop of Politicians are nothing but reactionary clowns who are managing Corporate power. Brand is completely right and his concerns were eloquently voiced.

 

[Seagull kimchi]

i remember that the research by Wakefield was flawed and no one has proven any such link since. you invoke belief in authority and say i'm daft to believe it, overlooking you are simply believing in an alternative "unofficial" authority. people tend not to believe as much as you think that comes down from the state, but they do give credibility to experts. genuine ones, not pseudo experts on Youtube that have no expertise or experience in the field.

my point you quoted is rather about the concept of "democracy" and what it or an alternative covers. really its just a governance process, most of societies ills fall outside of how we chose who joins the ruling elite, changing this method doesnt address the problems.



... all aspects of our economic not political system.

Thank you! Yes! Our economic system, advocated by our political guardians - is unfair, unjust and frankly making the Earth pretty sick. I agree! Now how do we make a positive change to this scenario? Or is everything OK? Please let's all put our heads together and challenge this system.

 

[symyjym]

So what's your manifesto to make things a bit better than they are? Or do you think everything is tickety-boo?

His point is to use his position in the media to say 'I think we should be questioning everything that gets done in our name and maybe make a bit more noise about the things that seem unfair' the next step is for us to stand up for our principles and protest effectively.

No I don't think everything is ok, but you have to crack it on a local level first.

We have had the debacle of the West Pier, Black Rock ice rink, Frank Gehry King Alfred, and now the doomed i360 and in the future the new King Alfred policy will fail. We are still without a state of the art leisure centre like Guilford and the way it is going we will never have one. I am using this as a general example because sport and leisure has a massive community draw and many social benefits.

It doesn't matter what party is voted in, it is run by the civil servants who dictate to them.

My manifesto would be to change the way it is worked on a local level first, before engaging global problems.

Russell Brand saying don't vote doesn't help. Changing what we are voting for does help imho, and if he had said that it would give him some basis.

 

[sten_super]

The problem with the question "what's the alternative system?" is where do you start. Most people would accept than any system needs some kind of ruler(s) - it is simply not feasible to do everything by referendum/committee. As soon as you start down that road you are edging towards the aims (although not the reality) of something akin to our current system - and that is why it boils down to the politics. For me, if you could remove the money and self-interest from politics then you could end up in a much better place - but there's no magic system which does that, instead I'm talking really about a consistently adjusting set of guidelines that attempt to meet those aims of making our rulers work for us, rather than working for themselves and big business.

 

[Nibble]

I urge the crackpot revolutionists on here to have a watch of Surviving Progress. Gives a somewhat more balanced view of how global change will likely occur. I know they won't though as it is over an hour of proven models and likely theory as opposed to 10 mins of air pudding.

 

[beorhthelm]

Thank you! Yes! Our economic system, advocated by our political guardians ...

no, advocated by us. we* all benefit. we like to cry about the negative effects, but actually by and large we are alright, jack. even those on the fringe of our society have no appetite for the other economic systems. the chinese communists have abandoned communist economics in favor of the market economy, what does that tell you?

*we being the west of course. but most the others want to follow our lead rather than any alternative, just with variations on the theme. so whats the real problem that needs to be addressed?

 

[Goldstone76]

Crikey, this line really takes the ignorance biscuit. Every vaccination has a risk, by its nature you are introducing the very thing you are trying to eliminate, when my two kids went through the MMR program, it was made very bloody clear that there was an x% chance of complications, this was balanced against the near certainty of broader complications if one or other of the three were contracted at some time in the future. This amazing paranoia resulting in many opting their children out of the scheme ( nice bit of family democracy there) led directly to an increase again in the instances of M M or R in recent years, go figure eh!!

Suggest you watch this

 

[Pavilionaire]

Brand would have you believe revolution is around the corner, but I don't see any evidence to suggest UK politicians are making much of a difference to our lives. All 3 main parties have been in government in recent times and I can't say my life has really been affected by whether Labour or Tory are in power.

As for the underclass, is this the underclass with the iPhones and widescreen TVs that are better than mine, the underclass with better trainers than mine, the ones that are too lazy to seek work so get Eastern Europe to do it for them?

Yes there are problems and yes there is apathy but it is apathy partly borne by things being so comfortable for so long. In fact things are so comfortable some people go out of their way to find some non-story to get worked up about.

 

[Goldstone76]

I urge the crackpot revolutionists on here to have a watch of Surviving Progress. Gives a somewhat more balanced view of how global change will likely occur. I know they won't though as it is over an hour of proven models and likely theory as opposed to 10 mins of air pudding.

Crackpot?? I think not. If you feel the current way is ok then carry on thinking that. baaaa......

 

[Nibble]

Just a point of interest, the reason we have a Tory government is because people didn't vote.

So basically Brand and some on here are saying "Politically, economically and morally this country is ****ed, there's going to be a revolution". Weren't a bunch of birds with their tits out saying that at Haight Ashbury over 4 decades ago? Anyone bother to do owt then? No. Anyone gonna do owt about it now? No.

As you were.

 

[Seagull kimchi]

No I don't think everything is ok, but you have to crack it on a local level first.

We have had the debacle of the West Pier, Black Rock ice rink, Frank Gehry King Alfred, and now the doomed i360 and in the future the new King Alfred policy will fail. We are still without a state of the art leisure centre like Guilford and the way it is going we will never have one. I am using this as a general example because sport and leisure has a massive community draw and many social benefits.

It doesn't matter what party is voted in, it is run by the civil servants who dictate to them.

My manifesto would be to change the way it is worked on a local level first, before engaging global problems.

Russell Brand saying don't vote doesn't help. Changing what we are voting for does help imho, and if he had said that it would give him some basis.

Kudos - I agree, as members of a local community your actions are worthy and exactly what a decent citizen can contribute. There is no dispute here.

I just applaud Brand for using his air time to getting out a message that very few celebrities do but could. The don't vote thing is unimportant compared to the message of - These politicians are self-serving/self-preserving.

 

[Nibble]

Crackpot?? I think not. If you feel the current way is ok then carry on thinking that. baaaa......

Course it's not okay. Read what people post. You may learn something. You wouldn't know what to do with the responsibility of a revolution if you got one. You cannot even handle the responsibility of being allowed on an internet forum.

 

[beorhthelm]

Suggest you watch this

i suggest you do actual research on the subject, how and why vaccination works, acedemic and medical studies going back hundreds of years (pre-colonial India and China understood the principle if not the mechanism of why). maybe ask some adults over 50 or 60 how many people they knew had polio or TB and ask someone under 40 how many people they know with the same (hint, the answer will be several and none)

 

[sten_super]

Suggest you watch this

Good point - who needs peer reviewed journals and cited evidence when you can just watch a Youtube video?

 

[Seagull kimchi]

no, advocated by us. we* all benefit. we like to cry about the negative effects, but actually by and large we are alright, jack. even those on the fringe of our society have no appetite for the other economic systems. the chinese communists have abandoned communist economics in favor of the market economy, what does that tell you?

*we being the west of course. but most the others want to follow our lead rather than any alternative, just with variations on the theme. so whats the real problem that needs to be addressed?

Eh yer, advocated by us - that's why enlightened people want to change that trend!


Ok we are alright Jack is the mantra - screw the Earth and the other 3 billion on the bread line - convince other countries to join the capitalist democracy and surf the comfort zone while we withhold food and medicine from the rest as long as we retain a comfort zone. Sounds sustainable...bang gone sorry grandchildren's children's children....

 

[Seagull kimchi]

Consumerism isn't something that ultimately leads to wellbeing, except for those who profit from it. It is a distraction from the real problem, which is that we all work hard for relatively little reward, while the rich elite live excessive lifestyles at the expense of the rest of humanity.

Yes, things are "comfortable" or "OK" for many of us, but our quality of lives are getting worse as each year passes. We are living in the 21st century, considering the knowledge and technology we have at our disposal, we should all be living in a much better world, social & economic inequality should be a thing of the past - but it isn't. So many young people are discontent and disillusioned with modern living, there is little hope for most of them - the very best so many can hope for is that one day they might own their own home. This is without mentioning the poverty that effects millions of people all around the world, or the relentless consumption of our planets finite resources and the destruction of our fragile environment - which all stem from the same problem.

Revolution is around the corner because democracy will not fix these problems, instead it perpetuates them. People are not only frustrated, they now they are aware of the cause of their frustrations and have ideas how to fix it - it is only a matter of time before some kind of event or movement arises that will start a revolution to fix our broken economic & political systems. It will be just another chapter in human history.

Thank you..I would like to be so eloquent and rational about my own thoughts!! Need to burst a lot of bubbles before people start looking at the really important issues in this one life we get to contribute to.

 

[Nibble]

You will never have a non tiered society. It is not how our species works. It's not how many species work. Fine, level out the playing field. Redistribute wealth. Equality for all. See how long that lasts before it either naturally redistributes itself or the worst aspects of our animal nature come to the fore.


I foresee a large scale global conflict within 18 months if this Eutopia ever came about. See how the hippies get on negotiating with other powers to disarm them. Oh I forgot, this is a global shift in consciousness isn't it. So no-one is going to try and take what you've got or protect what they have? I mean come on. get real. Think it through.

It's thoroughly unworkable.

Come on hippies, wide eyed optimism is charming in it's own way but there really comes a point when you have to think it through properly. This awakening you speak of? Well that'd be nice but be carful what you wish for.

 

[LargeHadronZugzwang]

Eh yer, advocated by us - that's why enlightened people want to change that trend!


Ok we are alright Jack is the mantra - screw the Earth and the other 3 billion on the bread line - convince other countries to join the capitalist democracy and surf the comfort zone while we withhold food and medicine from the rest as long as we retain a comfort zone. Sounds sustainable...bang gone sorry grandchildren's children's children....

Exactly. We are being run by a bunch of oafish clowns; who joined a boys club after school burning a £50 note in front of a homeless person (this is what they do initiate themselves, what a caring club is the Bullingdon boys) who go looking for badgers waving their guns about, and when they don't shoot enough they say that the badgers have 'moved the goalposts' (terribly unsporting old chap) they have told the World that the UK will be the hub for drilling in the Arctic, sold workers rights off, flogged off Royal Mail cheaply, introduced tax breaks to the most polluting industry on the planet, introduced tax concessions for the hyper-wealthy, legitimised loan shark Companies who charge 4000% interest, used public taxes to fight for the right of Bankers to get unlimited bonuses. All this, while the nation's favourite programme is a competition to bake cakes. No wonder this Country is fracked.

The change of localisation i.e. Transition Towns is a major step forward to sustainability in my humble view, this is the sort of panacea that would be very useful. The world has 5 million farmers, it probably needs 50 million: we need to go back to the land and I'm not talking about hippy communes. Make no mistake, there is a reason why the price of petrol has increased five fold in the last decade and that the Energy Companies are struggling despite making a vast profit.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Consumerism isn't something that ultimately leads to wellbeing, except for those who profit from it. It is a distraction from the real problem, which is that we all work hard for relatively little reward, while the rich elite live excessive lifestyles at the expense of the rest of humanity.

Yes, things are "comfortable" or "OK" for many of us, but our quality of lives are getting worse as each year passes. We are living in the 21st century, considering the knowledge and technology we have at our disposal, we should all be living in a much better world, social & economic inequality should be a thing of the past - but it isn't. So many young people are discontent and disillusioned with modern living, there is little hope for most of them - the very best so many can hope for is that one day they might own their own home. This is without mentioning the poverty that effects millions of people all around the world, or the relentless consumption of our planets finite resources and the destruction of our fragile environment - which all stem from the same problem.

Revolution is around the corner because democracy will not fix these problems, instead it perpetuates them. People are not only frustrated, they are now aware of the cause of their frustrations and have ideas how to fix it - it is only a matter of time before some kind of event or movement arises that will start a revolution to fix our broken economic & political systems. It will be just another chapter in human history.

All 7bn of us?

 

[symyjym]

Kudos - I agree, as members of a local community your actions are worthy and exactly what a decent citizen can contribute. There is no dispute here.

I just applaud Brand for using his air time to getting out a message that very few celebrities do but could. The don't vote thing is unimportant compared to the message of - These politicians are self-serving/self-preserving.

I agree that he has started a debate for a day but he has got the same madness in his eyes as Tony Blair.

Every interview he has he will bring up the ex drug addict card as if it is some sort of badge of honour and whilst he preaches reformed enlightenment he also glorifies it as a special journey. The Amy Winehouse message is a more powerful one.

Also with the Andrew Sachs phone call prank I would find it hard to use him as a moral compass. All he is about is self publicity so I question his motivations as much as the next politian.