Barack Obama - Now More Than Ever Is The Time To Change USA Gun Laws

[dingodan]

Finally, the penny has dropped.

Don't know what your problem is.

The sentiment that guns are bad and evil and somehow morally wrong - is infantile.

The suggestion that gun laws in America are to blame for shootings - is not logical or reasonable.

I don't set out to insult people, or be abusive or anything. And I am sorry that some people find what I am saying offensive or belittling.

But it is true.

 

[beorhthelm]

You really have not thought this through have you ?

well thats just the thing, he hasn't thought about it at all, just delivering a prescribed answer from the american right-wing libertarian pro-gun group to which he subscribes.

 

[Nibble]

I said people were being childish and not using logic or reasoning.

The evidence for this is the childish posts lacking in logic and reasoning.

Wanting stricter gun control is childish but suggesting arming teaachers is logical? I think it was you that was harping on about the US wanting to dis-arm the population after the cinema shooting. Ignoramus.

 

[The Large One]

Don't know what your problem is.

The sentiment that guns are bad and evil and somehow morally wrong - is infantile.

The suggestion that gun laws in America are to blame for shootings - is not logical or reasonable.

I don't set out to insult people, or be abusive or anything. And I am sorry that some people find what I am saying offensive or belittling.

But it is true.

I don't have a problem, although your evident problem with others is intriguing. It's not what you're saying that's offensive or belittling - it doesn't have enough merit for that, it's how you're saying it - that any counter-argument is met with derision, which you attempt to belittle as childish, followed by your own flawed logic.

Put simply, you haven't made the case to back the contention that guns being bad is infantile. You've merely resorted to trying to belittle people with a flawed and incomplete concept of reasoning which seeks to presume certain issues, while ignoring many others.

 

[Nibble]

People are saying that it's the mental healthcare issues that need addressing not gun control. Yes, healthcare issues do need addressing but if a head mental is likely to hurt themselves or others then you take away sharp objects etc, the same with the US. The US is head mental, first step, take away the guns, they will hurt themselves or others, all safe? Right, now let's address the mentalisms.

 

[dingodan]

I don't have a problem, although your evident problem with others is intriguing. It's not what you're saying that's offensive or belittling - it doesn't have enough merit for that, it's how you're saying it - that any counter-argument is met with derision, which you attempt to belittle as childish, followed by your own flawed logic.

Put simply, you haven't made the case to back the contention that guns being bad is infantile. You've merely resorted to trying to belittle people with a flawed and incomplete concept of reasoning which seeks to presume certain issues, while ignoring many others.

Guns are inanimate objects. They are dispassionate. Projecting a moral quality onto an inanimate object is something children do, usually as a result of parental conditioning.

Your posts are difficult to read for some reason.

 

[LE19]

I don't set out to insult people, or be abusive or anything. And I am sorry that some people find what I am saying offensive or belittling.

But it is true.

You just can't get past "I'm right, you're wrong", can you?

 

[Nibble]

Guns are inanimate objects. They are dispassionate. Projecting a moral quality onto an inanimate object is something children do, usually as a result of parental conditioning.

Your posts are difficult to read for some reason.

That is open for debate actually Dingo. A gun that takes live rounds is built for the sole purpose of wounding or killing another living being. It has no other purpose, although I believe some Russians use them as hammers but I digress, it is made for what many consider to be an evil purpose, there are some schools of philosophy that would suggest weapons posess inherant evil. So, you see DD, the argument that guns could be evil is an interesting one, philosophically thinking. I realise that's quite a big theme for you to get your head around but it's what some grown ups debate. Thankfuly, your brand of narrow minded ignorance is becoming less and less listened to these days.

Your sweeping statement above is another example of your posturing and inability to read the bigger picture.

And for the record all this "I don't mean to offend, I just tell the truth" routine smacks of such insecurity and paradoxically, solipsism, it's beyond cliche.

 

[The Large One]

Guns are inanimate objects. They are dispassionate. Projecting a moral quality onto an inanimate object is something children do, usually as a result of parental conditioning.

... which is another way of repeating the 'guns don't kill people...' etc mantra; an argument which holds little water.

Your post misses the central point by a long way, pretty much to the point of irrelevance - and I still don't think you've cottoned on to that.

So... I still wait for you to back up the contention that guns being bad is infantile.

Your posts are difficult to read for some reason.

Hmmm... that's still your problem. Others are coping.

 

[GreersElbow]

Can we stop concentrating on guns, and concentrate on the mentally ill?

They're the ones who get forgotten, the guns aren't the problem entirely. They're a part of the problem, the cause of these shootings is darker than a weapon, but mental state of the perpretrator. He would have found other ways to kill, knives are easy to acquire, machetes, baseball bats.

Timothy McVeigh made a homemade bomb....

The solution doesn't start at the acquisition of the firearm, but stopping mental illness getting worse to the breaking point. More education needs to be spent on mental illness, they get stigmatised from these events which isolates and alienates them even more and makes them more likely to commit atrocities.

The problem in America is not the gun, but the mental illness prevention.

 

[The Large One]

Can we stop concentrating on guns, and concentrate on the mentally ill?

They're the ones who get forgotten, the guns aren't the problem entirely. They're a part of the problem, the cause of these shootings is darker than a weapon, but mental state of the perpretrator. He would have found other ways to kill, knives are easy to acquire, machetes, baseball bats.

Timothy McVeigh made a homemade bomb....

The solution doesn't start at the acquisition of the firearm, but stopping mental illness getting worse to the breaking point. More education needs to be spent on mental illness, they get stigmatised from these events which isolates and alienates them even more and makes them more likely to commit atrocities.

The problem in America is not the gun, but the mental illness prevention.

The problem is both, actually.

While mental illness plays a major part in this, that in no way absolves the part played by the gun.

Mental illness is prevalent here and elsewhere, but without the gun... you know the rest.

 

[dingodan]

... which is another way of repeating the 'guns don't kill people...' etc mantra; an argument which has already been blown out of the water.

No it isn't.

Your post misses the central point by a long way, pretty much to the point of irrelevance - and I still don't think you've cottoned on to that.

So... I still wait for you to back up the contention that guns being bad is infantile.

Guns are inanimate objects. They are dispassionate. Projecting a moral quality onto an inanimate object is something children do, usually as a result of parental conditioning.

 

[GreersElbow]

The problem is both, actually.

While mental illness plays a major part in this, that in no way absolves the part played by the gun.

Mental illness is prevalent here and elsewhere, but without the gun... you know the rest.

Oh I know, guns in the U.S are very easily acquired. But the debate seems to avoid the mentally ill, and then the media plays them out to all be psychopaths and then everyone goes out and buys a gun because they're about to be invaded by an Arab schizophrenic terrorist hell bent on taking away their liberty.

I personally don't have a problem with gun ownership (assault rifles, auto or not is a no no no). As they can be used for security, but mainly pass times such as hunting or clay pigeon, but reading about U.S laws, it's batshit crazy how easy it is to get a semi-automatic AR-15, which is essientially, military grade weaponry..

 

[Nibble]

Can we stop concentrating on guns, and concentrate on the mentally ill?

They're the ones who get forgotten, the guns aren't the problem entirely. They're a part of the problem, the cause of these shootings is darker than a weapon, but mental state of the perpretrator. He would have found other ways to kill, knives are easy to acquire, machetes, baseball bats.

Timothy McVeigh made a homemade bomb....

The solution doesn't start at the acquisition of the firearm, but stopping mental illness getting worse to the breaking point. More education needs to be spent on mental illness, they get stigmatised from these events which isolates and alienates them even more and makes them more likely to commit atrocities.

The problem in America is not the gun, but the mental illness prevention.

This is true, but I refer you to my previous point, can we first get all the semi-automatic weapons out of the hands of these metalists then concentrate on the illness? If someone was going spastic and was waiving a knife around you wouldn't say "the knife is not the problem, their illness is the issue here" You'd get the knfe away from them and then address the real problem surely? Does no-one else see this? Has the whole world gone craaazy? AM I THE ONLY ONLY ONE THAT GIVES A SHIT ABOUT THE RULES. MARK IT 0!!!

 

[GreersElbow]

This is true, but I refer you to my previous point, can we first get all the semi-automatic weapons out of the hands of these metalists then concentrate on the illness? If someone was going spastic and was waiving a knife around you wouldn't say "the knife is not the problem, their illness is the issue here" You'd get the knfe away from them and then address the real problem surely? Does no-one else see this? Has the whole world gone craaazy? AM I THE ONLY ONLY ONE THAT GIVES A SHIT ABOUT THE RULES. MARK IT 0!!!

You are correct, but try telling an American this....

 

[The Large One]

Guns are inanimate objects. They are dispassionate. Projecting a moral quality onto an inanimate object is something children do, usually as a result of parental conditioning.

I read what you said, but that's only a self-justifying statement. Effectively, you're saying people are making infantile statements because of the opinion that you hold about infantile statements. However, you still don't back up your contention, you merely repeated it.

It is, incidentally, still missing the central point of the debate.

 

[beorhthelm]

The problem in America is not the gun, but the mental illness prevention.

mental health is definatly part of the matter and Obama has called that out as issue. the problem with the gun debate is that it lumps everything from a revolver to a automatic assault weapon together. if we look at the mass killing events, there is a tendancy for the later to be involved, where they have no good reason to be in the possesion of anyone. the arguments for gun, like self defence or simply go out and shoot deer are for a different class of gun. it seems entirely possible and sensible, as they have in many other countries, to continue to permit guns while getting outlawing the auto (and semi-auro rifles?) classes. that would help reduce the incident of mass killing sprees.

 

[sten_super]

Can we stop concentrating on guns, and concentrate on the mentally ill?

They're the ones who get forgotten, the guns aren't the problem entirely. They're a part of the problem, the cause of these shootings is darker than a weapon, but mental state of the perpretrator. He would have found other ways to kill, knives are easy to acquire, machetes, baseball bats.

Isn't the issue that (massive generalisation alert) a large proportion of these (particularly school) shooters tend to be young males, very quiet and very introverted? They don't interact with large numbers of people (a trait which is hardly restricted to those with mental issues) and it's therefore difficult to ascertain their state of mind and flag up concerns. Without some kind of compulsory screening, how do you diagnose these people?

 

[Nibble]

I read what you said, but that's only a self-justifying statement. Effectively, you're saying people are making infantile statements because of the opinion that you hold about infantile statements. However, you still don't back up your contention, you merely repeated it.

It is, incidentally, still missing the central point of the debate.

I note, as per MO he doesn't actually reply to the points you or I made he just repeats his "truth" bollocks. Insecure little baby.

 

[looney]

Guns kill people like spoons make people fat.

Gun grabbers wait for an emotional argument as without it they are busted. THE USA has lower rates of household burglary than the UK. THE changes could be mapped when the states brought in the C and C laws. The deterent effect is massive.